What's More Important in Your Website: Substance or Style?, with Dr. J.J. Peterson and Kris Jones

Hey Hero Maker, have you been listening to one of our episodes and been like, yeah, but JJ and April, I feel really stuck because, well, we're putting together a new series just for you. For you, we want you to call in with your marketing questions and areas where you just feel like you haven't been able to move forward.

Maybe you've been trying to figure something out for a while and the answer just seems to be eluding you. Maybe your newsletters or emails just aren't getting the engagement that you hoped they would. Maybe when you sit down to create marketing, you become furious or sad or scared. And so you just end up avoiding them all together.

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This happens a lot in marketing. You get excited about something and you jump headfirst into the thing that you're the most excited about instead of actually going all the way. Wait, what do we want this to accomplish and develop some strategy and messaging first? And where we really see this a lot is websites.

Websites, people get really excited about and they jump to the bells and whistles first. They want it to be beautiful. They want it to wow people. However, there's different order that you need to go in to set it up for the success that you actually want in the long  run. 

Hello, Hero Maker. Welcome to the Marketing Made Simple podcast. Powered by StoryBrand and brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, where we believe your marketing should be easy and it should work. I am your host, Dr. J. J. Peterson, and I am joined by my co host April Sunshine Hawkins. Hi, April. Oh, hi, J.

J. And hello, Hero Maker. And J. J., congratulations on your engagement. Thank you very much. Oh, my goodness. Thank you very much. It was such a delight to see the first Photos and the video on Instagram. So Hero Maker, if you haven't checked it out, go check out the feed at Dr. JJ Peterson on Instagram. Oh, it was so heartwarming and you look so happy.

And I'm so curious about how wedding planning is going.  Well, what's funny is. Well, first off, thank you. That's very sweet. Um, yeah, it was kind of a last minute thing, not last minute, like that we're going to get married, but a last minute proposal. Because what was funny is I thought I was ahead of the game.

So we were thinking we were going to get married in the fall. And so in my mind, I'm like, well, then I don't need to propose until the summer. And  then we can kind of throw together a wedding. How is this ahead of the game? I'm confused about the ahead of the game. So this is the ahead of the game part. So what happened is a friend of mine said, You should talk to our wedding coordinator.

And I was like, It's way too early. But we'll talk to the wedding coordinator. And as we were talking to her, we found out she had one Sunday in all of September and October available. No Fridays, no weekends. No Saturdays, and I was like, Oh, well, she's just really good. So she's really busy. And then we started looking at venues and all the venues were booked, like for all the whole fall.

And then caterers were booked. And so here I am thinking like, Oh, talking to a wedding coordinator. Right now I'm way ahead of the game. Turns out I am so far behind as far as like planning. So I wasn't planning on getting engaged for a while. And, you know, mainly because of life circumstances, we were going to get married last year and then, you know, stuff happened with my dad and our kids and all of this stuff.

And so, um, Uh, we kind of pushed it back. So it's not like it wasn't happening. It's just, I thought, I've got some time. I wanted to put a flash mob together and for engagement. And so I thought I had all this time. And so once we decided, then we actually started first with getting the flash mob. Some of the things, details, taking care of getting our wedding coordinator, looking at venues and things like that.

And then I got engaged. And so that's why it was like, it was a little bit last minute engagement. And I just kind of carried the ring around in my pocket and found the perfect moment. And it really was very special to us, more special than I actually thought it would be. And it was really cool. And it's been that now we're like in that wedding planning zone.

And what's interesting to me, because I, I, as a former pastor, I have performed probably around a hundred weddings because I was actually a, uh, I was ordained minister and I worked at two different Bible colleges. So. I, all the kids were getting married. They asked me to do the wedding, so I performed a lot.

I've just not really thought about my own for, you know, a long time. So I'm learning so much. And what's funny is the very first thing that we wanted to, like, get is we want we want to. Tattoo artists at our wedding reception like like real one real one. Yeah ink. Yes with actual ink in the skin Not in a tattoo real tattoos.

Yeah, so you'll be getting yours You and Brent And so we like knit that was like the most important thing to us which is so funny because we wanted that kind of piece in there and So we got our tattoo artists, then we started talking to wedding venues, wedding venues that we liked, and we were settling on a wedding venue and found out that actually they won't allow outside tattoo artists there because of insurance purposes.

So then. Yay. All of a sudden now we had to back out of a wedding venue because, and, and it was this, it's weird thing of like,  you have to kind of go in the right order of stuff, right? So we really should have gotten engaged first  and then had gone to maybe a wedding planner and then the venue and then it, like all of these things, but we just dove right in on tattoos and now we're having to like pump the brakes and back up a little bit.

And, like, figure out the rest of it. I mean, you're gonna get married. Yes, that's happening. That is definitely happening. But I can see that it's just like, okay, the order of this, it could have, like, helped maybe reduce a little stress.  And also just finding the things that match your vision in the right order makes a lot of sense, right?

It's a science a little bit. It's a little bit. Thank goodness we have a planner who now, like, is helping with all of those things. that really kind of shows us how to do it because This happens a lot in life and you know you get excited about something and you jump headfirst Into the thing that you're the most excited about and as you get going in the process all of a sudden you realize Oh, maybe if we would have started in a more foundational place first and then bring in the bells and whistles,  or the tattoo artists, as you will, as we will, um,  then you actually can set things up in the right order and not have to kind of like backtrack and do that.

And start over and it happens in life and then it happens in marketing. I see this a lot with people in marketing space as well is they go, Oh, we need an incredible campaign to launch on TikTok. So let's develop a dance routine. Let's be funny. Let's develop this kind of thing because they jump to the bell and whistle first and they go, Oh, let's jump on this trend that's happening right now, instead of actually going.

Wait, what do we want this to accomplish and develop some strategy and messaging first? And where we really see this a lot is websites, websites. People get really excited about and they dive in because they want it to be beautiful. They want it to be functional, but really they want it to wow people when they come to website.

I need the right template. It's gotta be the right template. The right colors and the right logo and all the right images. And they start with that. And in reality, Those are great. Those are great bells and whistles. That's great branding move. I don't want to discount that. However, there's probably a different order that you need to go in, in order to set it up for the success that you actually want in the longterm.

Absolutely. And today you are going to learn how to do things in the right order, and that will help you make your marketing easy and make it work. 

So Chris Jones, we are talking to StoryBrand Certified Guides who have been in our program more than five years, which you definitely fit the bill for. Of course, you came to like one of our very first trainings. We're asking everybody the same question. What is one big realization that has changed the way that you do marketing?

Oh, wow. So I have been in the industry now 20 years. Which is insane to think about. But when I became a guide and when I really understood the framework enough to implement it for my clients,  everything changed around the way that I do my work, because I have always been kind of a, a design first type of person, like all about aesthetics.

Making it look beautiful, create a gorgeous website.  And what I really learned in  2017 was how important story is. And in a way I knew it was important, but I didn't know how powerful it was.  And that is what shifted the order in which I do things. So I had prior to that created a beautiful design and then had a copywriter go insert copy here.

And in you've got this much room to put the copy, right? And then once I was empowered to implement story brand,  I started with the copy. I started with the story and then the design came secondary to everything else. Wow, that's a really big shift because it sounds like you were in marketing for over ten years before becoming a StoryBrand Certified Guide.

So what happened once you started incorporating StoryBrand? First, what, what was that like? It was really incredible, honestly. I mean, I've been doing the work long enough that initially when I got into the industry, like a beautiful website was really all you needed to thrive in business. Like, there was not a lot of competition, and if you had a website, you were a legit business, right?

That's like, watch out, world. Like, wow. Right, right. You've made it. So, what shifted for my clients after was really remarkable. And that's why I use that word, powerful, when I talk about story, because it hit me in the face, like, this is the most effective way to market.  Really to connect, to create true, authentic connections.

And people want to work with people they feel connected to. They don't want to work with the most qualified or the one with the prettiest design. And so for my clients, I w I was getting calls like every week. I had one client that.  Had been on the verge of burnout, had been on the verge of closing the doors of his business.

He was a consultant and he called me and said, I'm now charging six times more for the exact same service. I haven't changed a thing. And I feel so confident. Like he's like, I show up differently at networking events because I have the right words to communicate what I do. So it was like this. Confidence began to happen internally for my clients and then outwardly they were able to charge what their work was worth, really what the problem they were solving was worth.

What a powerful transformative experience for that client. And so Chris, I want to dig in a little deeper here because obviously this paradigm shift, you know, going from design first to, um, story, huge. I want to know, you know, what else, like when you dig deep, whenever you are working with people creating their story, what is another big realization, another big approach to creating the story that has really made a huge impact?

Um, well, one of the biggest, Things is that most people don't understand how story works. And so I began to really bake in time and tools to educate them on the importance of it and how it worked in a way that didn't overwhelm them because I'm often working with people that are.  very busy. They have a lot on their plate.

They don't want to, even if I would send them the book, they might not read it. Um, so I found a couple of very short videos that in two or three minutes could summarize what StoryBrand was all about and why they needed it. And that has been probably as big of a game changer for me as the other, because It's really, you can't get approval on copy or a story if they don't understand the why behind what you're doing. 

And so I really take the time to educate them, literally one on one. We have calls. I basically, it looks like I'm sharing the story. The copy with them and I'm presenting it to them, but it's really about education and helping them understand why this is there, why I'm using this, why this section includes that.

And I found when I do that, which I do with every client now, I really don't get any revisions.  And that saves a ton of time  for everybody, for  everybody, because it sounds like you are saying, okay, hey, let's start with the why. This is why story works. This is how it works. This is how we've crafted your story through this framework.

What do you think? And then they go, Yes, rather than it being like, well, I, I'm the expert. I put this through this framework that you know nothing about. You don't have any clue why this might work or why it might not. And now I'm presenting something to you to be an editor and instead of a approver, you know, and whenever we put something in front of someone to be an editor, they're like, They think it's their job to find something that needs to change, and when they have the education and that you're on the same team, it's more of that approver role.

Is that what I'm hearing you say? It's like a partnership, but we don't get off the call until we're aligned. We go through each and every detail, and I make sure I get their thumbs up and buy in, and if I don't have it, we adjust. And so that's eliminated all the rounds of revisions that can often get a little bit out of control.

Absolutely. Absolutely. We do not want to get on the revision train, you know, and just stay on it forever. And then after that design comes into play. Yes. Yes. Oh, yes. Like, I'm a big believer that there's a visual story being told right alongside of the written story that's told. And when you take the time to care and carefully curate the visual story.

And it aligns with the written story. That's when you like bubble up to the top of the internet, because so many people might invest in their story, but they kind of think of design as an afterthought, or they might outsource it to someone who doesn't have experience. Or, you know, a lot of people, I think, devalue the importance of design.

And I have found that there's so many wonderful ways. It's to tell a visual story that actually enhances the written story. And it's not all that hard, but it has to be done and it has to be done with intention.  Entrepreneurs on Fire is hosted by John Lee Dumas and is available now on the HubSpot podcast network.

Entrepreneurs on Fire stokes inspiration and share strategies to fire up your entrepreneurial journey and create the life you've always dreamed of. If you're wanting to learn more about entrepreneurship, this show is for you. If you like fast paced and packed with value stories that you can learn from directly, this show is also for you.

Check out the recent episode titled February 2024 Income Report, where John Lee Dumas shares a transparent behind the scenes look at the ups and downs of running a seven figure business. Through hearing about his mistakes, lessons learned and wins, you'll be inspired and motivated to take action in your business with just one step forward every single day.

He even gives a link with free and direct access to his company's income report. So listen to entrepreneurs on fire wherever you get your podcasts. 

Now that I'm a dad of a teenager, I am very often told that I am either on or off trend.  I wake up in the morning and it is a really right away going, Oh no, you can't wear that when you walk out the door. And I'm like, what? I thought that this is what everybody was wearing. It's true when it comes to my clothes.

And it also is true with marketing strategies. They come and they go and they come back again. Who can even keep up? Luckily, there's HubSpot's 2024 State of Marketing Report. It's the all in one guide for what's happening this year and how marketers can best approach it all. I found it incredibly helpful.

In fact, it really showed me that you need to keep your marketing personal, even in the midst of all the changes that are happening with AI. I even posted about it on LinkedIn and wrote about it. You can find it there, or you can go to hubspot. com slash state of marketing to get your free copy of the report.

Don't get. Caught behind the trends, visit hubspot. com slash state of marketing to get your free copy of the report. 

And now back to the show.  Are there some ways that you are working with your clients and putting up boundaries that make it easier on both of you? Definitely. In my initial call with a client, I asked them a handful of questions. Number one, I've become the guide instead of the, the hero, right? Even in the, it's very meta, even in our relationship, I'm the guide.

And so I ask them questions to qualify them, to find out if they're a good fit for me. For example, I will ask, okay, are you the key decision maker for this project? And if they're not, I'll say, okay, well, I can only take this project on if I'm working directly with the key decision maker, if there are multiple decision makers, which does happen, I will not take the project.

If there are more than two key decision makers, so if there are, let's, let's just say they have a committee of five. I'll say, okay, if you want to move forward with the project, then I need you to choose the two people that I'm going to be communicating with. And those people need to be given the power to make decisions because we make a lot of decisions on our calls and we don't have time to like, Go back and get buy in from the group and then come back and revise.

So it's really efficient that way. And prior to that, what would happen is I would not be working with the key decision maker. And often there'd be lots of people involved and I would present. The design and the story, and then they would go off and present it without me to everybody else. And then everybody has an opinion and it would kind of go off the rails and the, the integrity and quality of the project, the design and the story would just go down, just.

Spiral down downwards, which is so painful to watch. And again, like back to that idea of win win, it was really a lose lose because the end result just got watered down. And I think the intention was good in that when there is a group of people involved, often one of the key decision makers wants to, wants everyone to feel like they're included. 

And when people feel included, they feel like they should participate in feedback and they often will give feedback based on their personal preference, not based on what the hero's personal preference would actually be. And so that's part of the reason it does go downhill quickly. And so I'm just, I'm not willing to do that.

Like I can't stand behind work.  And watch it go downhill. And so I, I basically qualify them at the beginning and I tell them why, like, this is why. I care about the end product so much that my name is behind it. And I want the most effective website or marketing tool. That you can possibly have, and this is why I do it.

And so they, they understand and then they get on board with it. So that's really changed the way that I. That I work with my clients. I think they also feel more confident in me because I'm the guide and I have qualifications when you're working with larger companies like Nike or like well known companies that everybody wants to like have that logo in their portfolio.

Often it creates this relationship where the. Consultant or the vendor will just bend over backwards because it's Nike and they don't want to mess up the relationship. And so they are kind of like the design monkey or the copywriting monkey rather than really the one in charge. So, you know, the reality is they're hiring me, they're hiring other guides for their expertise.

And part of that is really Making sure that the integrity of the work is maintained. That's so, so smart. Sounds like you have just really dialed in your process. Yeah. Well, there's one other thought that I had, which is there are ways to get group buy in. You just have to do it intentionally and strategically.

And so if you're someone like me and you, you're kind of limiting the amount of people that are the main decision makers. The workaround is to get it to the point that you love it, and there are two options that are a win win. There's the blue option, and there's the turquoise option. And then you, at that point, once we've sifted through all the big decisions, or there's like, One headline versus another headline, but they're both really good.

They're really solid. Then you can show it to the group and get buy in. And that's a beautiful way to like include everybody. Cause I think the intention, like I said, it's a good one. And people do want to feel like they're participating in the process. And I think it's best to kind of wait till you've got a couple options that are a win win and then they get to vote or choose or.

Give their thoughts. Yes. Yes. You're right. Buy in is essential for people to be like, Oh, I gave my green light. I gave my thumbs up to this, but you're what you're proposing is, Hey, in a win win scenario, we're also creating two win wins to present, um, as well. So it's a lot of winning, um, is what I'm hearing.

Yeah. Well, Chris, this has been such an an energizing conversation. What I gleaned from you is that today's conversation was really a masterclass in intention. These big paradigm shifts, they make such a big difference in our businesses, but also in our lives. And so thank you for coming on and sharing your wisdom.

Chris https: otter. ai Aw, thank you for having me. 

Okay, Hero Maker, now you have permission to be really intentional about the order that you do things in creating new projects, who you talk to, how you structure your time, really focus on being intentional on creating marketing that works. And if you're still feeling stuck, Duck trying to figure out how to apply the StoryBrand framework into your marketing.

You can hire a StoryBrand certified guide like Chris Jones. Just go to marketingmadesimple. com to hire a guide that will show you how to clarify your message and create marketing that works. Well Hero Maker, it's time to apply everything you learned with this week's actionable step. A practical step from today's conversation, you can immediately use to shape your marketing and clarify your message every time that you start a new project, whether it involves design, whether it involves video, whether it involves social media, emails, Any marketing collateral at all, you need to be intentional about how you start.

And we know the best way you can start is by creating a clear message. And the way that we create a clear message is with a brand script. We've said it over and over and over again on this podcast. And if you've been around StoryBrand at all, you understand the power of a brand script and using it to create a clear message. 

If you go into all of those other projects, your website, your digital campaigns, videos, anything, and you do not have a clear message, all you're doing is putting more noise in the marketplace. You really, really, really need to be intentional about the message that you're putting out there. And the best way to do it is by.

Creating a clear message with a brand script. And you know, the brand script really is that place. When you use a brand script, it's that place that you can keep all of your marketing language. And you know that the brand script really is just a tool that you use to create marketing language around you and your customer story.

You position your customers, the hero. You talk about the problems that you solve for your hero. You talk about how you position yourself as a guide, how you give them a plan, how you call them to action and cast a vision for what their life looks like if they do or don't buy your product with success and failure.

All you're doing in a brand script is creating talking points that keep your message clear and focused. Then once you have that, you can take that and use that in your business. In all your marketing collateral, but if you jump into the other stuff first, it's not going to be as effective. So your actionable step for this week's episode is to make sure that you are creating a clear message before you actually launch any campaigns.

Sit down. And create a clear message using a brand script. And if you've been trying to figure out if you are doing this right, if the brand scripts that you're creating and the message that you're creating is clear and it's compelling, you can actually come to our StoryBrand Marketing Workshop, which is coming up May 7th and 8th.

In that marketing workshop over two days, you will actually create a clear message for a campaign or your overall business. And the best part about it is you will have a story brand certified guide who will coach you through the whole process. So, you know, you're getting it right. It is so important to have that clear message upfront before you launch any new marketing.

Project. If you don't, you're just putting noise in the marketplace. You're going to confuse your customers and your marketing won't work. So to register for the StoryBrand Marketing Workshop, May 7th and 8th, go to storybrand. com slash workshop to join us for this virtual event. When you clarify your message and you get that right from the start.

What you do in that moment is you create messaging that positions your customers. The hero, you talk about the problems that you solve, and when they buy your product, they ultimately overcome those problems. They become the hero of their own story. And that's what ultimately makes you the great guide.

That's what makes you a hero maker.  Well, that's all for this week's episode of marketing made simple. Thank you so much for listening and believing like us that your marketing should be easy. Easy and it should work follow marketing made simple wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you found this episode valuable, please rate and review the show, letting us know how these tips are clarifying your message and growing your business.

We'll see you next week. 

Okay, Hero Maker, are you like me and you've purchased maybe a few online courses and they're just like hanging out,  waiting to be gone through. But what I really need, and maybe you do too, is somebody to walk you through the content live. Like I need to put it on my calendar. I need to say, okay, for these two days I am doing this.

And then  I want some real time feedback. Well, that's what you're going to get if you come to our StoryBrand live workshop. Instead of worrying about the future, you can actually make a plan and move forward. You can surround yourself with support and positivity. So at this virtual marketing workshop, you are going to clarify your message by walking through every single piece of the StoryBrand framework and figuring out, okay, What is it that my customer wants?

What is it that my customer is experiencing? Like, what's the problem that we need to actually focus on here? And you're going to do that with the help of an expert story brand coach. And so our next workshop is coming up May 7th and 8th. The deadline to register is May 3rd, and all you've got to do is go to StoryBrand.

com slash workshop to sign up, get it on your calendar and know that you will have the accountability and somebody to come alongside you and walk you through it every step of the way. Again, go to StoryBrand. com slash workshop to sign up now.