A Conversation with the Founder of Red Door Designs

Shades of Entrepreneurship Podcast, with Gabriel Flores and Kris Jones

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Shades of Entrepreneurship. This is your host, mister Gabriel Flores. Today, I am here with Chris Jones from Red Door Designs. Really excited about this woman because it's a local Portland entrepreneur who is actually referred to by a former guest, Adam Haven. So, Adam, thank you so much for this, but let's stop talking about Adam.

Let's start talking about Chris. Chris, introduce yourself. Well, my name is Chris. I'm a local business owner. I run a boutique firm called Red Door Designs, and I've been doing this work now for 20 years.

And I basically am a storyteller. I help entrepreneurs and small business owners get really clear on how to communicate about their business in a way that's very compelling, that will truly resonate with your idea with their ideal clients and really feels aligned with who they are as an entrepreneur. So the way that I do my work is very much focused on simplicity, telling a clear story, having a clear message, and then taking that message and putting it out into the world via your website, all your social platforms. The beautiful thing about it is that when you take the time to tell a a compelling story, you never have to reinvent the wheel. So you get to use that and repurpose that story on all your marketing materials, which I don't know about you, but the entrepreneurs that I work with have a lot on their plate.

They're overwhelmed. They're feeling spread too thin. And so anywhere where you can optimize things and repurpose things and make marketing your business easier, I'm all about it. So that's what I help my people do. Yeah.

Chris is pulling out my heartstrings because, you know, she talked about a lot of things right there that really are things I go through myself. Like folks, for example, me and Chris were talking right before we got on the show, there's going to be reels of this conversation, right. That we'll post on, on, social media. They're also going to use her logo. We use her photo, right?

These are different marketing pieces. I used to also do quotes. I used to grab quotes from each of the episodes, but as Chris mentioned, got a lot on the plate, you know, it's, it's been difficult. So I apologize folks that have been watching our social channels and haven't been getting to it because I certainly do have a lot in my plate. But, you know, Chris, let's talk about, your your current venture.

How did you start the business? Oh my gosh. It's been so long ago. Essentially, I began as a visual storyteller, so I loved design, branding. Like most people in Portland, I worked at Nike.

I got to work in their design depart department and really visually communicate powerful messages through colors, fonts, photography, all the branding types of things that that we all get to work with when we own our own business. And, eventually, over the course of many years, the landscape kind of changed, and everybody needed a website. And so I started helping my clients create websites, and I loved it because there's so much design involved. This is, like, back in the day when Flash was the thing. I don't know if you remember that.

Man. That thing just killed the tele I don't even think phones were able to use Flash because it just got so much energy. Well and no one it never occurred to somebody that you would go to a website from your phone because you were you know, it it was just such a a different time. But what happened was I loved doing the work, and I really loved working with I I loved transitioning from working with, like, the bigger corporations and kind of getting good at the craft, and then my people are really entrepreneurs. They're small business owners, and they're here doing the work that they love.

And they just wanna focus on the work that they love and not all the other things that go along with running a business. And so I started working with clients like that. And as time went on, I went from creating these beautiful websites, that were mostly visual, and they began not to be as effective for my clients. Because at that point, it went from all you need is a professionally designed website to grow as a business to, okay, now all my competition, they have websites, and, you know, just a beautiful website isn't going to get you a new client new clients anymore. It's not gonna fill up your schedule, and convert.

And so I had a client actually one time. This is years ago, like, in 2016, and she had been in the publishing industry. She she was really excited about this new business that she was gonna launch. She has she was like, I've got the copy down. Like, I want you to do the website design, so we it was the perfect fit.

And so she felt really comfortable because she'd been in the publishing industry for years years. And so we set the project kickoff date. Her her, her copy her website copy was due to me on April 1st, and then I got a call that day that was just like, oh my gosh, Chris. I'm pulling my hair out. I'm like, this is so much harder than I thought it was gonna be.

Why am I struggling so hard? Like, I consider myself a good writer. This is kind of my industry. What what the hell is going on, essentially? And and so she's like, can you help me?

And I'm like, I can, like, brainstorm I can, like, brainstorm with you, but I can't, like, necessarily take this off your plate because it wasn't part of my expertise. And so we brainstorm some things. I said you can hire this copywriter, maybe talk to some clients, maybe step away from it and come back to it. We and she tried all the all the things, and she actually tried hiring multiple copywriters. And what what happened was the copy that she hired out, it didn't feel like her.

It just it was like somebody went and wrote it for her, and it's really hard to capture someone's voice when you're not that person. And so she was in this pickle where, like, she couldn't hire somebody, but she felt really stuck trying to do it herself. And so that was a rough that was a rough, like, project for me. But at that point, I basically was like, I'm never letting this happen again. Like, I am gonna crack the code on how to tell a compelling story online in a way that truly resonates and aligns with my clients and also is incredibly effective at helping them grow their business.

And so I just went on a mission. I flew across the country. I went to storytelling workshops. I read books. I practiced.

I I even got certified as one of the very first StoryBrand guides, which is, yeah, which it I was, like, certified before the book even came out. It's, for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, there's a book called Building a Story Brand by Donald Miller, who also was a Portland guy I went to read. I'm gonna have to get see that every time I bring port Portland people, they're like, by the way, here's another guest. Right? Right.

Exactly. And so I I just fell in love with story because it was so in alignment with what I was already doing, and it was basically deepening my ability to tell stories in a way that was just incredibly effective and helpful for my clients. So I started applying the framework and, and also really pairing it with beautiful design. Right? Like, the story is so powerful, but when it's paired with beautiful visual design that really brings that story to life, I would say that's when you start bubbling up to the top of the Internet or the top of your industry because no one's really doing both.

Yeah. Very, very important. Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of how how things have evolved for for my business over the years.

And now what I do, like, the only way to work with me to kind of come in through those red doors is through going through my, storytelling. Let's get your business story really dialed in and really clear, and then we can do the other marketing components for you. But we always start there because it's truly the foundation of your business. You know, there's 2 things, folks, that I really wanna pull out for the listeners. One is the the thing you mentioned was regarding conversion.

Right? You you're at the end of the day, you know, we're talking about this. In fact, we're again a shameless plug. I'm writing about this in the newsletter right now in the shades of e newsletter talking about the sales funnel and how it actually, the marketing funnel also coexists with the sales funnel. So there are marketing tactics that go along with the sales tactics at each stage of these funnel.

And again, the marketing team, as Chris is kind of talking about, their goal is to help you get to that conversion as well. Right. Because we're all on the same team and we want to create a conversion sale. And then after that, then, then comes a loyalty, right? How do we, how do we maintain that?

And that that's, that's a really, really important piece, but also there was just the important piece about the storytelling as well. I really want to call that out too when, you know, if you're a don't go. If you're a new entrepreneur, don't focus on pricing. Focus on building a brand and how you can do that is by storytelling. You know, I always talk about personal stories when I do, public speeches because it resonates with the, with the audience.

And it also makes it practical sense, right? Here's the data. Here's the information we talked about. Now let me make it practical by actually real, really resonating you with a personal story, you know, and I think that's Chris, I think those are 2 big things. You know, I love to pull out the education piece when somebody says some golden nuggets like that, because it really does help, folks learn and understand like, oh, that's what they mean.

Now, can you take a time? Like take us back to the beginning of your entrepreneurial journey? I want to start like the very beginning. What motivated you to take the leap to start in entrepreneurship? Well, before I dive into that, I just wanna echo your statement about the power of story as a tool for becoming memorable.

So as entrepreneurs, a big part of the challenge is, like, how do I stand out? How do I be remembered? And if you think about, like, the last presentation you went to or the last Zoom call you went to, if somebody asked you what was it about, you would remember that personal story that they shared. They might have all kinds of other data and information they talked about for 45 minutes. You remember the 2 minute story that they shared with you.

So stories are actually 22 times more memorable than just facts, and that's the power of story. It's a lot about just simple psychology. And and so when I talk about story for my clients and the people that I work with, I'm I'm also talking about story, not so much in the way that, like, you read a a book to your kids, like, once upon a time. It's more like how to create a narrative, how to craft a story for your business that invites your potential clients into a story with you where they're really the hero of the story and you play the Yoda or the guide of that story. And so it's, it's an invitation to invite it's an invitation to deeply connect and resonate with your ideal clients.

That's the power of story. Man, and and a great example of this, folks, is is Nike. You know, you mentioned you work at Nike. Nike doesn't actually make anything. Right?

They're a brand. They put the swoosh on things. That's what they do. But then they make you feel a certain way with their branding and their marketing. You make it feel like an athlete.

When I put on the Jordans, I can stick out my tongue. I think I'm gonna dunk. I can't, I can't dunk it. You I stick out my tongue, but I cannot dunk it. I'll be honest.

Right? But it just again, going back to that storytelling piece, it's it how valuable it is, and so I'm glad that you pulled that piece out. Now, again, I would love to kind of go back. What motivated you to jump into entrepreneurship? You know, when I think back on it, I I've always been wired for entrepreneurship.

I had my first business when I turned 8, and it was called What were we doing at 8? What was Kristen's doing at 8? It was called Kristen's Crafts with a k, and it was I had, I had my own business cards. And, yeah, it was very official. I went door to door and peddled acrylic goods that I would customize with paint pens.

And and so, truly, I was I was just, it's kind of in my wiring. And I think for me, I had to be, you know, I had to be employed for a number of years to really learn the craft and get experience under my belt. So I have no regrets on that, but I always was so driven toward freedom, and entrepreneurship that making that leap wasn't wasn't all that hard for me. It was kind of like, oh, the the next obvious step. I also think that, I was working out at Nike, and I was in a cubicle.

And I was just kind of, like, commuting out 26 every morning. And I just could feel in my bones when I made that commute and when I was stuck in a cubicle all day that it was, like, killing a little bit of my soul every day. I could just it was just just a knowing that I had. And it really being in a scenario like that, it was not an option for me. And I also was at a time in my life that I didn't have, you know, a big car payment or people that take care of kids, and and so I think that also really helped that transition not feel so scary.

You know, I I feel like you know, speaking of transitions and scary transitions, I think entrepreneurship in itself is a very scary endeavor. Right? It comes with its fair share of challenges, I would say. Could you share some of your significant hurdles that you've encountered when starting your business, and how did you navigate through it? I think that along the way, and I am I imagine this is pretty common.

I wanted to kind of do everything, and so, I would take on projects that really weren't necessarily, like, in my wheelhouse, but I I would just say yes because I I had this mentality around, like, if you say no, they might never come back or they might not come back. Right? So I I did 2 things. I took on projects that probably weren't in my wheelhouse. Like, I took on this project for an infomercial company, and they were like, oh, you're a designer.

We need you to edit this infomercial. And I was like, okay. And they're like, okay. Come down to the editing house. I had no idea how to operate even the editing software.

It was like and I remember I just I had figured things figured things out before, and so I was just like, oh, I'm sure I'll figure it out. How hard can it be? Well, that that was the one thing. Like, I couldn't learn editing video editing when I was more of a graphic designer at that time, and so I pulled an all nighter. I didn't do a good job at all, and I cried basically in the morning because I was exhausted, and I had to kind of failed.

So that and then also kind of in alignment with that was just taking on more than I could handle. Like, I would say yes. I would kind of let people, I guess, you know, I don't wanna I wasn't, like, a victim or anything, but I would just let people take advantage of me. I remember I remember having, like, projects that would be on their, like, 25th round of revisions, and I didn't know how to have boundaries around that. And so I would find myself working really hard, too hard, and, not charging enough and, canceling on things that I really wanted to do, like social things, time with friends.

So, yeah, those are the those are the things that I struggled with, and I think how I overcome that came that was just through time of learning the combination of what do I really, really love doing and what, what can I really deliver for my clients that can promise results? And once you kind of hone in on that, then you can start practicing like, okay. What's realistic? Like, typically, I can do this with only 2 rounds of revisions. So how can I, you know, give my clients what they need without having me bend over backwards or feel depleted?

Yeah. No. This is you know, I think you again, that message in regards to and this is some a good takeaway for the listeners, you know, talking about how you felt like you failed to take it on that project. But again, you learned immensely, right? And then you learned, took that learning moment and were able to succeed because now you can focus on your core competency.

And that's, folks, you know, listen, and this is why I always say I've never felt it a day in my life. I either learn or so I succeed. Chris did both. She learned and then she succeeded. And I think this is a testament to all entrepreneurs of that's kind of the mindset.

When you go into this, you're going to have some hiccups. It's not, it's not for the Phantom Hour. It's not easy, but it's super enjoyable, when when you have those, moments of success. There are moments of pounding your head against the wall several times. Right?

But, you know, it's it's interesting because, you know, finding those moments and, like, you know, hurdling that moment is very important because, again, failure to me, is truly saying, okay, I can't do it and then stop and just completely giving up. Okay. Then you failed. But if you truly took that moment and learn from it and try to pivot and figure out what's best for you, and then you succeed from there right now, Chris, you have a lot of experience, so I'm going to go ahead and pick your brain because I I'm I'm I get to do this. Right?

And now what are the most important, components to of telling a good story? Well, every good story begins with a character or a hero that has a problem they don't know how to solve. And so we wanna always begin our communications with our hero and talk about their problems. So I think what I want your listeners to really write down if you have a pen, or just remember this in your brain because it's it's really important. Every story begins with a hero that has a problem.

They meet a guide who gives them a really clear plan that calls them to action and ultimately results in success. And so that is the formula for story, and what I want you guys to remember is just you are not the hero of your own story. As business owners, we are the guide. We are the mister Miyagi. We are the Yoda.

And so I I think just that shift can potentially change the way you communicate about your business. So we really wanna it's it's challenging, and I get why this happens. We're entrepreneurs. We love the work that we do, and we wanna talk about it a lot. But when we focus our communications around our clients and the people that we help, it it helps them get a sense that we we understand what they're going through, and we we can help them.

So it's really about them. And the other thing I wanna share is that the hero is actually the weakest character in the story. They're think about the movie that you last went to. Like, there it begins with a hero who has a problem. The reason we don't get up and leave the theater is because we don't know if that hero is gonna succeed or if they're gonna fail.

Right? They're struggling to overcome a problem. So when we make ourselves the hero of our own story, we're actually painting ourself as the weakest character in the story, and there's only room for 1 hero in the story. And so it really it's important that we show up as the guide. Man, Unit's kinda crazy.

I'm starting to think back on little blast movie out Encanto. Man. Right? Encanto is a Bela. Right?

That the younger sister, she was the the one, right, like you mentioned, kind of the the weaker link, but she would end up being the hero. Right? Lord of the Rings. Sorry, Frodo Baggins. You are the weakest link, right?

The sad, it's very interesting. They kind of, I'd never really thought about that. But again, now I start looking at the stories and the movies I've, you know, really kind of drawn to. That's exactly how the story kind of unfolds. Right?

All of them. A 100% of all of them. Yep. Oh, man. So now I'm gonna I'm gonna kinda ask some questions about copy.

Now for folks that are unfamiliar, so copy is a marketing reference to written information that aims to inform, persuade, or entertain an audience. Okay. So now, again, Chris, you're providing valuable information. So share us three most common mistakes entrepreneurs make with copy and how they can avoid it. Oh, gosh.

Okay. Common mistakes. I mean, definitely the one about making yourself the hero of your own story. I think as self employed people, we've typically been doing the work, for a while, and so we forget what it's like to not know what we know. And what happens when we do this is we make an assumption that our the people that visit our website, that they know as much as we do about our industry.

And we tend to either, use complicated language, use too much language, too much copy, or too much copy is just like text. Right? So putting too much text on your website, using terminology that kind of is over their head or that makes them work to really understand it. That's another mistake that I I see a lot. And then the other thing is really getting so excited about how we solve their problem.

We forget to really articulate really where they're at, meeting them where they are at. And when we do that take the time to meet them where they're at by articulating their struggles and really painting a picture of a brighter future for them, they really begin to resonate with us. They begin to automatically think we're the best ones to solve it. They begin to trust us, which people will not work with people they don't trust. So it really does pay to take the time to tell a clear, and compelling story, and that's how you overcome all those challenges.

When you have too much text, a story will simplify your communication so you're not overloading people with text on your website. No one's gonna read it if you have too much copy on there. That's true. Now now why do you think it's hard for you know, why do you think it's hard to write copy for your own business? Now, again, folks, copy is written information that aims to inform, persuade, or entertain an audience.

So why do you think for as entrepreneurs, right, why do you think it's hard to write copy for your own business? Because you're too close to it. So I have yet to meet an entrepreneur that doesn't struggle with this. When you're so close to your own business, trying to write copy for your own business is like you're inside of a bottle, and you're trying to read the label that can only be read from entrepreneurs think in their mind, if I keep working on this, eventually, I'm gonna be able to write something that I really like. And then 2, 3, 4 years later, they're like, okay.

Fine. I'll hire somebody to help me. And it's because you can't you can't get out of the bottle that you're in. It's like putting your hand against your face and somebody asking you to describe your own hand. It just doesn't work.

So that's why it's so hard. It's just it's it's such an incredibly frustrating process, and these are the clients I talk to all day every day. You know? They're just fed up, and they need some help and support. But they don't they also wanted to feel aligned with them, so they want it to be a collaborative process, which it should be.

And that's how it becomes very efficient too. You you know, you raised actually another question is one of your statements. When when is it? Like, you know, you mentioned entrepreneurs. Sometimes they do it themselves, and sometimes they hire professional.

When is it okay to do it yourself, and when should they hire a professional? You know, when you're an entrepreneur, this is a good it was an incredible time to be an entrepreneur because you've got a lot of tools. Like, back in the day, you could not go and build your own website. You could not go there was no Squarespace. You had to hire a a developer in order to do it.

And then if you needed to make changes or edits, it was a total headache. And so I'm a big fan of DIY ing the things that you can, like if you wanna revamp your website or create a website from scratch, there are beautiful templates within Squarespace or Wix or wherever you go that are designed by designers, and you can leverage their templates and have a website. Unfortunately, it doesn't really work the same for copywriting. I think that a lot of people do DIY it, but they never quite feel good about it. They never quite feel confident about it.

They never quite feel proud to send people there. They kinda cringe when someone says, what's your website address? And they're like, oh, well, you know, just email me. Don't really I haven't updated the website in a while. It's not really a truly a true reflection of the work that I'm doing right now.

And so, I really I believe there's no real way around, at least now, no real way around. I just don't think it's in your best interest to DIY or write your own copy if you really if you're really ready for it to be effective and you really have the capacity to bring on more clients. I think it's important to get to get help. I love it. You know what, folks?

I I was gonna ask, you know, I'm gonna I'm a be selfish. I'm gonna be selfish right now. I was going to ask for you to, you know, what would you, what would you tell our listeners one thing they can change about their website? You know what we're gonna do folks. This is a great opportunity for me to plug the YouTube channel.

What I'm going to do right now is I'm going to share my screen. I'm going to bring up my website. I'm going to bring up theshadesofe.com webpage. I'm going to show it to Chris. Chris, how, what, where can I, you know, just briefly looking at it, obviously, you know, quickly here, but hey?

What what looking at my website, how can I improve my copy? So you folks When when people land on your page I love doing this, by the way. This is what I do on all my money making messaging calls, which I do for free. Part of the the calls that I do, we look at your website, and we essentially identify, like, where are the holes in your boat? Where are you where are you sinking?

Where are you bailing out water when we can shore that up with storytelling and get your boat to where you wanna go? So, when people land on your page, we need to be able to communicate to them in 5 seconds or less what you do, how it's gonna make their life better, and what you want them to do next. So, you're communicating right here a business education podcast interviewing entrepreneurs. Okay. I'm already just by your but what you said, I'm already failing, like, 3 or 4 of the categories that you mentioned.

I'd love I'd love to help you get this part dialed in. I think you can simplify what it is. I think we we wanna communicate how it's gonna make their life better. So, we'd wanna bake ins bake in a core key benefit here. And then the most, valuable real estate on the entire page is in this upper right hand corner here.

Upper right hand corner, that's where the that's where the eye goes farther right farther right. Oh, up here. Yeah. It would be, like, listen now. Listen to list you know, you could point it to, like, your favorite episode or listen to the latest episode.

What do you want them to do? You you're if you're the guide, you're the one that knows how to solve this problem for them so you know what to tell them to do next. You're you don't wanna let them figure it out all by themselves. They are looking for you to step in as as their guide. And the other thing is, you know, you finally captured people.

They're finally on your page. You finally have an opportunity to connect with them, resonate with them, build trust, convert them into listeners. The last thing you want to do is send them over to Facebook and let the their own algorithm, take over and have them get distracted. So you're like, welcome to my page. Let's connect.

And then right at the top, you've got all your social icons, which potentially could send them away. Gotcha. That's interesting. You wanna be able to take the time to get you know, for them to get to know you and to help them understand that you know where they're at, and, we don't wanna send them off to another platform. I like it.

I like it. Man, folks, again, I hope you folks are actually watching on YouTube. That was just a quick two minute glimpse of what Chris and her team can do for you guys now. Chris, what, what can clients, if, if you know, some some folks are listening and maybe they wanna they wanna reach out to you and get some work, what can clients expect while working with you? So my core offer is called copy that sells in 2.5 hours flat, and that is story branded copy for your website, either your home page or a sales page.

But the idea is I write your copy for you. I essentially, step 1 is I pull that story out from your brain. Our brains as entrepreneurs are and we walk into the garage, and we Great analogy. Phenomenal. An analogy.

Thank you. We walk into the garage, and we're like, okay. That pile there, is that full of treasure, or is it full of trash and clutter? And so my job just ever after doing this work for so long, I know how to pull out the gold from your brain. I pull that story out from your brain, and then I take that information and write your copy for you.

And then you and I get on a collaboration call for 90 minutes, and I walk you through what I've written and help you really understand the strategy and the why behind everything that I've written. I'm a big believer that every word on your website is guilty until proven innocent. So we really take a less is more approach. People are not even reading websites anymore. They're scanning them at a rapid rate from their phone, and so it has to be written in a way that people's brains can absorb the information and really, understand what you do and how you can help them as they're going through the page really, really quickly.

And so so that's how I work with my clients. Then they take that copy and copy and paste it over to their website. And then at that point, I put on my designer hat, and I give them feedback on design, fonts, flow, photography, just to make sure that the visual story they're telling is bringing to life the written story that we've so carefully crafted. Now what's one thing that you've kind of gone through in your entrepreneurial journey that you're glad you got through that because it made you successful today? What's one thing that you can kinda look back on?

Oh my gosh. Or many, many things. Having my baby boy, a 100%. And for me, up until I had him, I was overworking a lot. I was inefficient with my time.

I gave too much away, and having a child forced me to reprioritize and streamline my systems, streamline everything in my business, and absolutely the hardest thing I've ever done. I mean, you hear that a lot about parenting, but for me, it was like of course, like, parenting was hard. It still is. But for me, it was like reimagining my business now that I have these constraints and how to really still get to do the work that I love, but also have, more time freedom to take care of him. So, yes, that that would that would be the the clear, obvious answer to your question.

Yeah. And, again, folks, it's it's kind of crazy. I'm I'm a I'm a father myself. I got 2 kids, 2 girls, and I'm telling you that the way you kind of view life differently from a different lens sometimes, having that responsibility of taking care of another individuals is really, really high. And I'm not sure that it would be all Peter Parker with great power comes great responsibility type of things, but truly it kind of is that way.

Right. You know, and, you're do and one thing I would encourage you though to do is when you're when you're building your business, kind of make sure your level set with that as well because I've actually had this conversation just this week where, hey, it's great. I want to grow and build and build and build because I want to create generational wealth for my family. But that building that generational wealth for my family shouldn't constantly pull me away from my family. Right?

Because at the end of the day, there's nothing more valuable than your time and your time spent with your family. You'll never regret that. You'll never regret it. Well, sometimes. Right?

You know, you know those family members, but no. But you'll never regret, you know, spending time with your kids. I don't regret, you know, going to basketball at 9 in the morning on Saturdays. I enjoy it. I can't wait for a Saturday because I get to scream at all these little kids, you know, and it's just, it's truly is an enjoyable thing, but just remember, try to level set yourself, remember what you're, who you're doing it for.

And just kind of remember that that time that you have with them is, is just as valuable as any generational wealth you can create. Now, Chris, for the listeners at home that are interested in maybe learning more about you, they wanna contact with you, how can they get a hold of you? The best way to connect with me is to go to my web site, which is at reddoordesigns.com. That's reddoordesigs.com. And there, if you're just fed up and done trying to DIY your copy, you can go through my copy that sells offer.

It's a 1 on 1 done for you offer. And if you're more of somebody who's enjoying the DIY and just you wanna learn more about story, you can also go to my website and sign up for my how to write compelling copy in 5 minutes flat video and worksheet, and you can really kind of learn and practice the fundamentals of what I've talked about today. Perfect. And then, again, folks, if you, did not get that website, it's a great time to plug the Shades of Entrepreneurship newsletter. You can actually subscribe by visiting the shades of e.com.

We'll have Chris's information on there as well as Red Door Designs information, linked to the website and their bio. Again, this, newsletter will come out every Wednesday. Hers' information will come out the week before the episode airs, the week the episode airs, and the week after. This, interview will also be streamed on YouTube. Now if you want early access to this episode, you can actually get early access by visiting Patreon for $5 a month.

You can get early access to all of our all of our content, as well as the book and other valuable, discounts there on the Patreon. Now before we go, Chris, is there any last words you have for the folks listening? I think the the final words I would share are be the guide. Be the guide. I like it.

You know? And and, again, and make sure when you're you're make sure you're guiding people, you know, to the to the right locations and not to walls or off cliffs for that matter, you know. Right. Be a good guide. Chris, thank you again so much.

I really do appreciate the time. For those folks listening, please follow us at the Shades of E on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and YouTube. Thank you, and have a great night.