Writing Compelling Copy with a StoryBrand Expert

Relationships Rule Podcast, with Janice Porter and Kris Jones

Speaker 1 (00:05):

Are you ready to grow your business by building relationships online and offline? Are you looking for a system to attract new prospects and nurture your past clients? Maybe you're a business owner, a sales professional, or an entrepreneur? If you are, then great. Join me, Janice Porter as we blast past your barriers to success and explore the power of relationships for your business. And welcome to the Relationships Rule podcast. Hello and welcome to the Relationships Rule podcast. I'm your host, Janice Porter. Welcome back. For those of you who subscribe to my podcast and welcome to anybody new who's listening today. My special guest this week is Kris Jones. And first of all, welcome to the show, Kris. 

Speaker 2 (00:55):

Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. 

Speaker 1 (00:57):

You are most welcome. My audience would probably love to know a little bit about you, so I'm just going to say a little bit and let you fill in the rest, really. You are a StoryBrand guide and founder of Red Door Designs, and I've had a couple of people that I've talked to about StoryBrand, and I still haven't fully done the entire thing myself, but I'm fascinated. I did read the first half of his book, I'm going to be honest, the Donald Miller book, and you were mentored by Donald Miller, the author of Building a StoryBrand. Correct yourself? Yeah. That's exciting. And you've had over 20 years of experience with clients like Nike and Adidas and are extremely passionate about helping small business owners and service providers get website copy that sells so they can multiply their revenue and focus on what they do best. And Kris, I know this is a common problem with small business owners. 

Speaker 1 (01:56):

We try to do everything ourselves and we think we can write about ourselves, but that's probably difficult to do from the right perspective that will help sell. I guess I know that a little bit because of the copy I help people with on their LinkedIn profiles, but I know it's a little bit different when it comes to their website. So tell me what it is that you find you can be the most of service the most to people, because what are the common mistakes they make or what are the common things that they get stuck on? 

Speaker 2 (02:31):

Well, you're touching on a really, really important part that as business owners, we go into business for ourselves because we really love the work that we do, and we're really good at it and we want to do more of it. And what we don't realize is that being self-employed means having to do a lot of writing, whether it's emails or your website or social media posts, all the writing that goes in with being self-employed. And what you really want to do is the work that you love. You don't want to be bogged down by all this kind of BSS writing that you don't want to deal with. We thought we were done with school and exactly your papers, but we're not. And so what happened was, for me, I started out in the website design business and brand design business. And what I found over the years is number one, I watched my clients struggle and struggle and struggle to try and write for themselves. 

Speaker 2 (03:36):

And I can relate. It was hard for me to write about my own business for many, many years. And so what I learned over time, back in the early days of the internet, if you had a beautiful website design and some nice photography, you were golden. But nowadays that will only get used so far. Design can only get used so far. You have got to have copy, strategic copy that actually sells for you in order to succeed. And there's a thing called that I call the bottle effect. And what that is, is when you're too close to your own business, it can feel really impossible to talk about it because you're inside the bottle trying to read the label that can only be read from the outside. Oh, I love that analogy. That's awesome. Yeah, and Genesee mentioned that it's a little bit different for your website than it is for LinkedIn. 

Speaker 2 (04:34):

It's actually not. It's just plain hard to write about ourselves because we are the business and we are just too close to it to have that perspective. And so I really love letting people off the hook around that because even people who consider themselves great writers have this same struggle. I talked with an author the other day who she is an author, she's written multiple parenting books, but again, she's so close to her own business that she can't talk about it. So it's a really, really common problem. And I finally got to a point where I'm just like, I'm on a mission to crack the code around how to make this easier and not such a struggle. And that's how I got connected with StoryBrand, actually got connected with Donald Miller and was connected with him prior to that book even coming out, really. And I just believed in the approach. So fundamentally, because it's about storytelling and storytelling is not a fad that comes and goes, it's part of our DNA and our wiring. It's how our brains work, it's how we connect with people, it's how we establish resonance with people. And you cannot sell or get a new client, or no one's going to want to work with you if they don't trust you and resonate with you. 

Speaker 1 (06:08):

Absolutely. So let me ask you this because I understand you're right, there is a similarity, but when I'm thinking about website copy, and perhaps I'm just thinking of one page on your website, the about section, which is about you, it's written from a different perspective or a different point of view, same thing as your about section on your LinkedIn profile. So very often I see people on LinkedIn saying, I'm this, I'm that. I'm wonderful. I've done all this, these are my credentials, and whatever. Nobody caress about that. They only care about what you can do for them. So does that apply with the website copy as well? 

Speaker 2 (06:54):

A hundred percent. 

Speaker 1 (06:55):

Okay. You do have to on your website, I feel that there's more of a, well, there's a different place on LinkedIn to put all your accolades as well, but on your website, is that there as well, but in a different place? 

Speaker 2 (07:10):

Well, let's be honest, people only really care about themselves and that's not a bad thing. So the about section on your website, I recommend you write your about section as it relates to your ideal client, what they care about, which is the way you're writing your LinkedIn profiles too. So it's the same thing. A lot of people really want to tell their story. Here's the history, and my grandfather founded this company, number one, nobody caress. I'm so sorry. I know, but nobody caress. And number two, if you really want to put that on your website, put it on a separate page that's different from the homepage. And then the 1% of people that really want to dig deeper, it's there for them if they want it. But yeah, that's my, 

Speaker 1 (08:07):

Okay. So we're really on the same page in so many ways. Okay. Can you give me two or three specific examples? I'm kind of putting you on the spot, but where you might shift somebody's content or how you would write it, how you see it written, and then how you would change it so that it converts better, it sells you better or sells your business better. So like a before and after kind of thing? 

Speaker 2 (08:43):

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I'm a big believer in clear over, clever. Everybody is overwhelmed. We don't have a lot of free time. And so when somebody lands on your website, you want to tell them what you do and who you do it for. And they need to be able to understand that without any effort, without their brain having to burn any calories to figure it out. And that's one of the most important things that you can do is just state what you do and who you do it for. So on a website that, let's just say it's a coaching website, somebody might write a open up to new possibilities. And that to me is just vague. I don't know what you're doing. Are you a travel company? I don't know what you do. I have no idea what you do. So it's just, it's probably pretty, I'm sure there's a pretty picture in the background, but often the picture in the background isn't related to the actual work itself either. So if it's like a vista of a mountain and it's okay, are we going hiking? What's going on? And so what I would recommend for that coach would be more along the lines of I help or I coach women over 50 to nail the next phase of their life. 

Speaker 1 (10:24):

So there it is in a nutshell, right? Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (10:26):

Right. 

Speaker 1 (10:27):

Okay. So right away, if I'm that person, I'm going to dig deeper, and if I'm not, I'll probably go somewhere else. 

Speaker 2 (10:33):

You want to repel the people that are not your right fit. That's part of good copy. 

Speaker 1 (10:38):

Exactly. Okay. Well, so how does StoryBrand work into how you work with people every time? I know there's a StoryBrand 

Speaker 2 (10:56):

Framework. 

Speaker 1 (10:57):

Framework, thank you. Yes. And so is that you do that pretty much all the time? Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (11:02):

So that's the work that I do all the time has a seven part framework, and they've essentially broken it down to seven ingredients that are part of every story you've ever read. Every movie you've ever watched, any good story that anyone's ever told you verbally, they all stories begin with a hero who has a problem that they don't know how to overcome. And then that hero meets a guide who has a solution, and together they reach the guide, helps the hero find success. And that's a simplified version. Yes, of 

Speaker 1 (11:45):

Course, of course. But I know I often, I'll be watching a movie and I'll go, I've seen this movie before, but you haven't seen that movie before, but you've seen that plot before. I still say it. There's only five plots in the whole world, and five people own the whole world as well, by the way, as another aside today, like man versus man, man versus animal, and there's all these different, right? There's only so many plots. So I understand that, but I'm not really, this is why you do what you do, and I don't do it because I don't know how to bring that out and into such a way as writing copy. So there's an art to it. I'm totally sure. 

Speaker 2 (12:35):

Yeah, there is. I mean, the beautiful thing about story is that the components and the framework is the same, but there is no two stories are the same. And everybody has their own unique story, and it's my job to pull out and extract those nuggets and those core elements and then weave them together like a puzzle. And I think that's why I love the work that I do so much because it's continually like this brain puzzle that can be solved and create something fresh and new every time. 

Speaker 1 (13:10):

Yeah, I totally get that because I didn't think that I could write. But when it comes to working with my LinkedIn clients and I work with them to reframe their about section, which is really the piece about them, I think that I'm doing a little bit of that without knowing it in the sense that I'm trying to find what's unique about them. Because if they're a mortgage broker, for example, I work with a lot of mortgage brokers, there's a zillion of them. But what makes you unique, right? Everybody is attracted to people for whatever reason. So you do have something that makes you stand out from the crowd. I remember talking to a woman before Kristmas who she is a mortgage broker, and we were going through this process and she told me that her biggest thing was being able to help people in her community, which is the Filipino community, and especially people who have come over here and now are finding a new world and a new life here. And quite often they have family still back in the Philippines, but this became the thread of what would make her unique to other people. So I just remember that as being something I could feel it in her when she was talking about it. So that must be really enlightening and satisfying for you when you do it too 

Speaker 2 (14:36):

Very much. It's really, really fun and fun. It's great to collaborate with people. I think I find that the copy is so much better in a collaborative environment. And I think what I love most is just the relief that I witness on my clients' faces when they finally can check it off their list. They know their website copy is working for them and selling for them, and they don't have to deal with it anymore. I think the one thing that I hear a lot that I don't talk about this a lot, but the byproduct of doing this work is that you essentially have a copy bible that you can go back to for your brand or your business and copy and paste from the, we together develop what I call a wire frame. So it's like a roadmap for your website, and then you've got access to that document, and anytime you need to write anything for your business, you go back to that document and copy and paste it. So all the language that you're going to need for all your marketing. 

Speaker 1 (15:46):

That's very cool. So do you work mostly one-on-one with people then? Do you work with them or do you do it for them? You just said you like to collaborate, but you probably do a bit of both. I don't know. 

Speaker 2 (15:57):

I find that two things typically happen when it comes to writing copy. Number one, people try and d DIY it themselves, and it's just a pain in the neck. And like I said, that bottle effect can make it really paralyzing. And then the other thing that happens is people spend a lot of money. I've met with people who spend 10,000 on a sales page. I've talked with someone who spent 40,000 on a sales page, which is just over the top, but 

Speaker 1 (16:33):

Was it a good sales page? 

Speaker 2 (16:34):

It didn't perform better than the page that she had done herself. Oh my. I know. So what happens is people finally get to a point in their business where they're like, okay, I'm going to hire someone else to do it for me, and I'm sure it's going to be great and work and be so effective. And ultimately what happens often is there's a lot of back and forth, a lot of edits because when somebody goes to write for you and they go away in a silo and do that, it's really hard to capture your voice. And so often your copywriter comes back and it doesn't feel like you, which is one thing if you're a big corporation, but it's different when you're the business. It really needs to resonate with you and your voice and just the nuances of your industry and the details about your clientele that really only. And so the way I have essentially solved that problem is through a collaborative approach. So I do write the website for you because it's so hard to write for yourself. But then after I've written it, we do a 90 minute collaborative call and we go through each section and just refine it, tweak it, refine it, tweak it until it's completely nailed. And then you've got everything you need for your website. 

Speaker 1 (18:03):

So when you're doing that for your client, when you're doing the writing, first writing, do you always do the framework first? Do you interview them and do you find out about them 

Speaker 2 (18:17):

More? Yes. Yeah. So I have a process that I have my clients go through with an intake form and some videos that accompany that intake form, and that takes about 45 minutes to an hour for them to do some prep work that allows me to gather the information I need to write the site. And then we do the collaboration call. The entire process takes my clients two and a half hours total. So the one hour of prep work and then the 90 minute call and it's done. 

Speaker 1 (18:50):

Wow. And I see, yeah, I guess so I'm thinking, how much could you get to know someone in that time? But then I do the same thing in the sense, so you're getting to know them as you're working. Yeah, that makes sense. Alright, I have to ask you this. With all the buzz that's going on with the chat, GBT and all that copywriting, AI and blah, blah, blah, open ai, what's your take on it? Have people come to you and ask you and they now, has it gotten yet to the point where people are suspicious, right? Are you doing this yourself or are you using chat, GPT, whatever? I mean, I've tested it. It's kind of fun, but I 

Speaker 2 (19:41):

Think it's really an exciting time, honestly. I think it's really cool. Like you said, it's really fun and I think I'm going to be doing a workshop on how to use chat GT Good and how to basically leverage that and guide it like the ai, it does need your guidance. I think it can definitely support the process, but it's not going to be a press a button and it's done, especially if you want to tell a story. I think it's always going to require some strategy and guidance, but I think it's going to be a cool revolutionary tie. It's a revolutionary, 

Speaker 1 (20:22):

But I think from what I heard two years behind in terms of the information that it has, and also when I've tested it with text it, if you give it the framework, it really just regurgitates it back to you. But I'm just playing with if I was playing with a title or something. So that actually is something I wanted to ask you as well, but I just wanted to hear your thoughts on it because it's definitely the topic of the month for sure. I've been watching some programs on it on Sunday morning, CBS Sunday morning, and they did one last week or the week before about art through the, and that was fascinating. It's completely different. 

Speaker 2 (21:17):

It's amazing. I mean, the type of images that it can create with little bit of guidance. I mean, that could just, that's the new version of Bingeing on Netflix. You could just binge on image creation forever. 

Speaker 1 (21:32):

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So interesting. So, okay, I saw something on your website, I think it was on your website. Oh, it was a video I saw somewhere from your website and I loved it. And so I want you to talk to me about, it was I think your intro video and you strummed a little instrument and saying, build me up buttercup. And I thought, number one, you've got a really nice voice, and number two, you're telling, you're making a point here. So can you share that with my audience, the point? 

Speaker 2 (22:06):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the point of that is really about, well, the idea that if somebody didn't know how to play the guitar and started strumming chords, it would sound like noise. And that is what is the most of the internet. The copy on the internet is just a bunch of noise. It's not really doing anything. It doesn't pull you in and it doesn't entice you to engage with it. 

Speaker 1 (22:36):

It gives me a headache most of the time 

Speaker 2 (22:39):

Where when you play a song, whether it be on the ukulele or guitar or any instrument, there are certain chords that are played and certain notes that are played together. And when you know which chords to strum, then it becomes music. And so it's the same instrument, but one is noise and one is music. And so it's really about understanding the different notes to play together. And I would liken that to the different components of storytelling when they're all put together. They make beautiful music that pull people in that want to learn more and want to engage with you, 

Speaker 1 (23:24):

But it also brings out a unique flavor by doing something that people aren't expecting. 

Speaker 2 (23:32):

Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (23:35):

I thought that was fun. I really liked it. So when people are looking for, I need you to do a landing page or a sales page for me, that will really sell my course. Okay. So today, does that mean it's one of those pages that goes on and on and on and on where you've got to buy here and then it's buy here again? And if you haven't got them by the, is that what that means still? Is that still a thing? 

Speaker 2 (24:16):

Well, think of it like this. People, especially on mobile people, it's much easier to scroll than it is to bounce around from page to page. So early days of the internet, there would be, I don't know, 8, 10, 12 pages with dropdown menus, and every page would have a pair text. And that's just not conducive to the way people use mobile phones and the way people read websites anymore. So it's really effortless to scroll down a page. I do believe in a long format sales page and even a long format homepage, because I like number one to take a comprehensive approach. I think it's not that hard to have a one-page website. When you integrate your about page and you integrate your services into the homepage, you're basically anticipating the information that people are looking for and wanting. And when it's done in the right order with strategy behind it, you're really spoonfeeding them the information they need when they need it, which builds trust. I don't like long format pages just for the sake of filling up the space. That's not good. But when there's clear story being told and you're overcoming objections and you're telling a story, then it doesn't feel like you're scrolling forever. It's just 

Speaker 1 (25:47):

Into it. 

Speaker 2 (25:48):

So 

Speaker 1 (25:49):

Does that mean that my website that has five or six pages is dated and I just had it done a few months ago? 

Speaker 2 (25:56):

No, it definitely doesn't mean that. I really do believe that if your homepage is done well, the whole goal of your website is to get people to schedule a call with you or engage with you in some way. And I believe that if your homepage is done well and it tells a story that it will do just that. My goal and what happens for my clients is that by the time people reach the bottom, if they even get that far, they've already clicked that schedule a call button. And so if you have more pages than that, it's not a bad thing. It's just a lot of people won't go to those other pages because they get their first impression. They don't have a lot of time to bounce and dive deeper into it. So you might as well design and write according to the way people are using the website, but it's by no means outdated. I think there are certain people who really like to read through every detail of every website. I would say 99% of the population doesn't read the website. They scan the website. So it needs to be written in a way that if someone is quickly scanning it on their mobile phone, that you're getting that information across. And it takes a lot of effort and energy to actually write less and to write with simplicity than it does to just throw a lot of text on a page. 

Speaker 1 (27:26):

Well, and I think on LinkedIn, it's the same thing when people connect with you. By the way, you owe me a connection on LinkedIn. It's been pending for a while there. I can tell you don't go over there very often, but that's okay. But when people start to connect with you and want to have a conversation, they've never gone below what I call the fold. And what someone said to me yesterday was now the scroll. But basically they don't, they just look at the first bit and that's it. But there's so much more if a LinkedIn profile is done properly that you can find out from the idiosyncrasies in the bottom part of the profile. And so I totally understand what you're saying. There's a little bit of a similarity. I'm just not into the sales jargon copy world, more about just putting the best you out there really is the way I've been looking at it because it's a little bit different. 

Speaker 2 (28:24):

Yeah, I mean, I think it's really less about, I mean, of course there are a lot of people that do sales jargon and everyone's kind of trying to figure it out and find their way. But in my opinion, it really comes down to when you tell a story, you're building trust, and you're building resonance, and you're beginning a relationship, you're inviting your potential customer into a narrative with you where you're the guide and they're the hero, and that is just irresistible to the human brain. 

Speaker 1 (28:55):

Oh, that's so cool. So I have to ask you this off topic. So you have a couple of children, I think two. 

Speaker 2 (29:02):

I have one 

Speaker 1 (29:03):

Boy. One, one boy. How old is he? Five. Five. And is he able to sit still long enough to hear stories now? 

Speaker 2 (29:10):

Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (29:11):

Okay. I have a granddaughter who's three and a half, and it's really hard to keep her still. Okay. But I love telling stories and in particular kids stories, reading stories. I love reading stories to kids. So does let you read to him and do you read him stories? 

Speaker 2 (29:27):

I do, yeah. Before bed, we just started our first chapter book. 

Speaker 1 (29:32):

Oh, that's early for a chapter book. What chapter book? 

Speaker 2 (29:35):

Oh, it's called Ava Wing's Diary. It's about a owl and it's age appropriate. It's really, 

Speaker 1 (29:44):

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting it. I was just curious. 

Speaker 2 (29:48):

No, I know. 

Speaker 1 (29:49):

But I love children's books and I love the stories, and that's where you see the pureness of a story and of the simplicity that a child gets it when it's so like the Big Hungry Bear or the Big Hungry Caterpillar, those stories are just priceless because they're so simple and clear about the problem and the hero. Right. So I was just curious because, so what's your favorite children's book? 

Speaker 2 (30:19):

Well, I love The Giving Tree. 

Speaker 1 (30:22):

Oh, nice. By Shell Silverstein. Shell Silverstein. Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (30:25):

I really love The Hungry Caterpillar. That's a big, 

Speaker 1 (30:28):

That's the one I love with my granddaughter. And we have another one. We do The Big Hungry Bear, which I pulled out of my closet, I think I used to read to her mom. And so it's an older book and it's not got hardcover pages, so we have to be very careful with it. But she tells me the story now. Yeah. So that's kind of fun. 

Speaker 2 (30:47):

Cool. 

Speaker 1 (30:49):

And so Shell Silverstein poems. I love where the Sidewalk Ends, but I go back to when I was a kid and I read my granddaughter now, and as I read my kids aa mil poems when we were six and when we were five or something like that, and not, he wrote, we Need The Pooh. Right. Are you familiar with AA mill? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Because English, so I'm not sure. But his poems are so much fun about Kristopher Robin and going to the Palace and very British. But it's kind of fun. And I know I digressed because I thought you would enjoy talking about story makes me think of children's literature, which is so much fun. And it made me think of one more thing about stories. So I'm a Jeopardy fan, I love Jeopardy. And on Jeopardy, the other night there was a category that was nursery rhymes, and none of them got them. Right. I think one got a right answer because we don't tell nursery rhymes to our kids anymore. There's too much stuff out there. I know. That just blew me away. 

Speaker 2 (31:58):

Wow. I didn't think about that. But you're right, 

Speaker 1 (32:02):

Like Baba black sheep. 

Speaker 2 (32:05):

Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (32:06):

Who does? He are the three people that he gets the sheep, the wool or something. So you have to say it in your head, but you have to know it. Right, 

Speaker 2 (32:15):

Right. 

Speaker 1 (32:16):

Sheep have you any wool? Yes or yes, or three bags full? One for the 

Speaker 2 (32:21):

Master 

Speaker 1 (32:22):

Master, one for the dameon, one for the little boy who lives down the link. Yes. But I know that I was, but no, I just thought that was really interesting. So that's something I'm aware of with my granddaughter. We do some of those. So anyway, as I said, I digress, but it's kind of Alright. Back to business. Here's a question that I love to ask my guests. Well, two actually. One, what are you reading now? Do you read? Do you listen? Do you watch? Which is it? 

Speaker 2 (32:49):

I typically listen. 

Speaker 1 (32:51):

Okay. 

Speaker 2 (32:52):

I typically listen and I love podcasts, so I listen to a lot of podcasts. What's your 

Speaker 1 (32:59):

Favorite podcast right now? 

Speaker 2 (33:00):

Oh my gosh, I'm listening to one. Well, I like a lot of biohacking kind of stuff. I listen to one called Ben Greenfield. I love, 

Speaker 1 (33:10):

That's so weird. Why? That's my maiden name. Greenfield. 

Speaker 2 (33:14):

Really? Okay. Maybe you guys are related. Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (33:18):

I don't think so, but okay. Ben Greenfield. 

Speaker 2 (33:21):

I really love pulling the thread with Elise Lowen. I really love Mel Robbins podcast. Oh 

Speaker 1 (33:30):

Yeah. Did you read her books? 

Speaker 2 (33:33):

Pardon? 

Speaker 1 (33:34):

You didn't read her books then you just I 

Speaker 2 (33:35):

Haven't, no. My friend gave me her planner or her kind of journal, but I haven't used it yet. And I love, we can do hard things with Glennon Doyle. 

Speaker 1 (33:49):

Oh, I dunno that either. So that's kind of fun. We can hard things. 

Speaker 2 (33:53):

Oh, good. And then if you're really wanting good storytelling, the best storytelling podcast is called Snap Judgment Best Storytelling. Their tagline is Storytelling with a Beat because they do an original score with every story that they tell. 

Speaker 1 (34:13):

Oh, that's fun. That's 

Speaker 2 (34:14):

Just really well told. Interesting stories. 

Speaker 1 (34:17):

Yeah, I haven't, the only one that was story, and it was actually a true crime that I listened to was amazing. Was Serial. Yes. Yeah. And it was about a murder down in the south or it was really good. And I couldn't stop listening, so I'll check this out. Thank you. And my other favorite question, which I like to ask you is about the word curiosity. So it's a two-part question. Do you you believe that curiosity is innate or learned? And what are you most curious about these days? 

Speaker 2 (34:50):

Days? Oh my gosh. Cool Questions. I a hundred percent believe curiosity is innate. 

Speaker 2 (34:59):

There is no doubt in my mind, especially if you've raised children, you watch them as babies. I mean, there's nothing but curiosity there. And then what am I curious about right now? Gosh, so many things. I think that's part of my issue is that I'm just so curious and I think that's why I love the work that I do. It's just never the same thing twice. I'm very curious now about this. There's a new methodology. It's probably not that new. I really, like I mentioned Ben Greenfield. I love the subject of psychology and healing. And I think if I were to clone myself or be born again at some point, I would be a psychologist. And I think part of why, another reason I love the work is there's a lot of psychology involved in the work that I do. But anyway, there's an approach called IFS that I'm very curious about. The theory is it's called Internal Family System. And the theory is that we all have kind of our own family inside of ourselves, and we have these different family members that show up in different ways. It's like, if you've ever heard of that, what's it called? Multiple personality disorder. It's like an extreme version of it. But I 

Speaker 1 (36:31):

Also think of the inner child in you. And yeah, 

Speaker 2 (36:35):

You could think of it that way too. Or we all have multiple inner children within us that have decided to have, we have needed to create different phases of our lives. And so it's a lot about just reconnecting with those. I just find that the approach fascinating and fun, and I do some of their meditations. So anyway, very curious about that right now. 

Speaker 1 (37:02):

Oh good. That's awesome. And you're one of those people that is still curious and hasn't had it beaten out of you so many people, so that's awesome. Well, this has been a delight. And so just before we close, and I know that there's a couple of things that I'm going to put in the show notes that I'll mention about your work, but just before we close, do you have one final tip for my audience about copywriting? 

Speaker 2 (37:33):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the number one tip is that the reason it's hard is because you're so close to your own business. And I think the biggest gift that you can give yourself is to get an outside perspective, whether that be a family member, a neighbor or friend, or a professional, just to kind of be able to look at you from outside that bottle so you're not stuck inside the bottle. So I think that would be the main thing. And then when it comes to story, I definitely recommend reading Donald Miller's building a StoryBrand book. But the key takeaway around that is that you are the guide and your clients are the hero, or your customers or clients are the heroes. So if you just keep that in mind when you're writing anything, it does take the pressure off of having to write about yourself all the time. And then you get to put yourself in their shoes and communicate in a different way. 

Speaker 1 (38:43):

Thank you. That was great. You've got two things that you offered for us to take a look at. I think. Learn how to write a compelling copy in five minutes flat. Yes. 

Speaker 2 (38:56):

Yep. 

Speaker 1 (38:57):

Is that having a session with you or, 

Speaker 2 (39:00):

Yeah. So I offer two main things. One of them is called How to Write Compelling Copy in Five Minutes Flat. That's a video and a worksheet, and you can schedule a call with me to get my feedback on that. Oh, 

Speaker 1 (39:14):

Perfect. 

Speaker 2 (39:15):

Or if you're just done trying to write your own copy and you want to get it done in two and a half hours flat, you and I can write it for you and then you and I collaborate on on it together. All of that stuff can all be found at one place, which is red door designs.com. That's Red Door Designs with an s@theend.com. 

Speaker 1 (39:37):

Perfect. I will put those things in the show notes. And again, thank you for being my guest today. It was very informative as well as fun, and I always like to get to know my guests a little bit with an offhand question. So for me, that was fun. I hope it was okay for you. And thank you to my audience as usual for being here. If you like what you heard, please leave a review and go visit Kris at her website. Thank you so much, and remember to stay connected and be remembered. 

Speaker 1 (40:11):

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