Enneagram for Leadership: How Founders Can Align Teams and Lead with Confidence with Ali Dunn

[00:00:00] Welcome to from Click to Client, where we transform a confusing message into a clear, compelling story that sells. I'm your host, Chris Jones, StoryBrand marketing expert. I'm here to help you attract more dream clients with the power of story.

Kris: ?

Allie Dunn, welcome to the show. Today. I have been so looking forward to this conversation. Allie is a leadership coach, speaker and Enneagram Pro. She helps her clients who are founders. She helps them lead with more confidence and less grind. Allie, welcome.

Ali: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Kris: So tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into this work.

Ali: Well, I am someone who, when I was a teenager, was doing every quiz in the back of a, you know, Cosmo magazine or Teen Beat. So I've always really been interested in psychology. I've always been interested in quizzes and in my career I would say my.

1.0 career. I worked in sales, uh, fashion wholesale, and so I did a lot of traveling. [00:01:00] It was very fun. Um, adventurous. Spent time in New York, LA, Las Vegas. And then I became a mom shortly after that. And what I noticed when I became a mom of this wee little baby, I live in California and my family's in Nova Scotia, so I'm originally from Canada.

Um, I found myself at a crossroads and I did not know what the next. Part of my career would look like because as someone who was traveling a lot, how did that work with a baby? What did that look like for my future? So I ended up in the early part of motherhood, staying home with my daughter. Which was supposed to feel like a privilege, but in that time I was not enjoying myself, but couldn't really find the words to articulate it.

Kris: Mm-hmm.

Ali: Had another daughter. So I have two teenage girls today. Um, and went on this self-discovery journey, right? Like, who am I, what matters to me, and why do I feel so misaligned? And kind of noticed that the world seemed very happy and fulfilled, and I couldn't quite figure out maybe what my purpose was, my values, or understand my motivation.

So I joined a women's, um, networking and coaching group who were trying to figure out like their next path. And part of this group was taking the Enneagram [00:02:00] assessment. So when I took this assessment and learned that I was an Enneagram type seven, which is someone who wants to experience it all.

Motivation is to do all the things, and the fear is in confinement. I realize why my life was not aligned, right? Because I was living a day-to-day experience with my sweet babies, but also I had not a lot of freedom, not a lot of excitement, not a lot of spontaneity, right? So kind of a very rigid structured lifestyle that I wasn't used to living.

So when that happened, I thought, wow, this Enneagram. Piece. This is really fascinating. And, and what, like what could I do with this? Or how will this play a role in my life if I skip forward to today? I started my own coaching business. Would be eight years next month. And I originally didn't use the Enneagram as a tool.

It was a tool that I was using for myself, right? So that I can understand how to run my business, how to work with clients, how to support other people. And then I realized I wanna get certified in this tool, right? I wanna bring this tool to teams. So I work with teams as well to help them with their communication and connection, and then also with my individual clients.

So once I kind of [00:03:00] dove deep into the Enneagram, I couldn't get myself out. Mm.

Kris: Amazing. So let's rewind again back to when you initially went through the Enneagram with your little girls at home. At that point, did you have one baby at home or two?

Ali: Two.

Kris: Okay. And so you discovered, oh my gosh, the way I'm wired is completely opposite to the way my life has been structured at this phase.

Um, what did you, what do you do, like when you're kind of in a bind like that, how do you, how do you nurture that part of yourself? That type seven, and also, I mean. You got these kids, so got these kids

Ali: that

Kris: can't really change.

Ali: Exactly. Well, and it's so interesting 'cause it took me a long time to put the puzzle pieces together so I could recognize my unhappiness.

Right. And I could recognize a misalignment. And a lot of the work I was doing that time, I was, you know, seeing a therapist trying to kind of uncover my identity as a new mom, plus going through, you know, the Enneagram and this kind of coaching part of it. And what I realized was that I was using. [00:04:00] When I could, I would travel with my children.

So that was something I would do. Like I took my girls to Paris and Italy, like I did these kind of adventures, even just me and the two of them to meet up with family or whatever it might be. Wow. And everyone would say, you're so crazy. How can you do this? And I thought this part, I mean, yes, stressful, but feels easy to me.

The hard part is like going to the playground and just watching my children slide down, slide for three hours. Right. So it was just like, when I realized that piece, I thought, okay. How to get unstuck like that is the challenge, right? So you have the information in front of you and you think, what are the changes that I need to make in order to start living this part of my life?

Right? So I think at first it was just micro steps, right? And just making sure that. 'cause Enneagram sevens also like, you know, culture variety. So making sure I point in new restaurants, seeing new friends, having fun. Like I worked on my personal life at that time because I felt like my professional life was still, um, I just couldn't see what it was.

Right. And I didn't feel like I had the full bandwidth. 'cause you said I still have these kids. My husband traveled a lot at the time as well, so I was really alone a lot. So a lot of time for deep reflection, trying to bring the fun and [00:05:00] joy into it and then realizing. Sevens are actually also very entrepreneurial.

So there's something inside of me. I think that I always wanted to have my own business, but I was too scared to make that leap.

Kris: Mm, got it. Got it. Okay. So it's so fun to reflect back, right? Because it's like, oh, I can see the golden thread. That became the life that I have now, but it's, it's fun to kind of deconstruct and reconstruct and, and for me.

I have an 8-year-old now, but when he was born, I was a solo parent. I went through, I'm a single mom by choice and so I went through IVF. I knew what I, what I was getting into in the fact that I knew that I was gonna have a baby. Yeah, I did not know what I was actually getting into. And I very wired around freedom, travel, um, spontaneity, um.

All the things. And so I didn't realize what I was getting into, um, as far as the level of responsibility, and I found, I haven't really thought back to that time as far as my Enneagram, but [00:06:00] I found, I figured out ways to keep my mind engaged and two. Keep learning to keep growing, um, and in hindsight, like those limitations that he brought into my life.

Are the very reason that I work the way that I do now. It's like, oh, I've gotta have boundaries around this. I have to have a very structured and streamlined offering that doesn't change from client to client that I can, that's a proven system that, that I can walk through with my clients. And it's such a gift.

It's such a gift. But often those, um. Perspectives and awareness is born from being in a, a, a pickle if you'll, you know what I mean?

Ali: Out of necessity.

Kris: Yes.

Ali: Yeah.

Kris: Yeah. So let's, um, let's talk a little bit about Enneagram. I, I know a tiny bit, like I know that I'm a type three. But I don't know a lot about what that means.

For somebody who is new to [00:07:00] Enneagram, um, tell us like the 1 0 1, what is it?

Ali: Yeah, I mean, what's interesting about the Enneagram is sometimes I think you can even take the name of it out of the equation and replace it with motivation. Because really what the Enneagram does is it measures your motivation.

So through, there's multiple assessments out there that we can do. So through an assessment or really just reading about the different types, there's nine of them. And understanding, you know, why we do the things we do. So it's not necessarily behavior, it's not the action, but it's more the why behind it.

So we have our nine types and each type is linked with their own motivation and it varies as to what they are. You said you're a type three, so that's achiever. We have our type ones, which are perfectionists. Twos are our helpers. Fours are the creatives. Fives are the specialists, six are skeptics. Seven like that would be me, the visionary.

Um, eight are our controllers or challengers. And the nines are the peacemakers. So within that, that essentially is telling you your motivation. So if you're a type nine, the motivation is to keep the peace. You are more focused on harmony. You tend to be conflict avoidant. Right. So just knowing [00:08:00] those two small things about you can change the way that you operate and that you show up in the world.

Because if you, most of us don't notice our patterns, right? So we are kind of living our life day to day, and the same things are happening, but we're really not stopping to be curious about this. Why do I do the things that I do? And, but the Enneagram, it's less about, okay, this is your label and you're kind of stuck in this box.

It's almost like you're already in that box, let's name it. And then you get to choose. When you wanna step out of it. So it's really about like growth and expansion and less just about, so I'm this type accept me who, for who I am. And so that to me is like the growth part. Like it is always evolving and you're always growing and it's not just at the end of the day, I'm only this type and there's no work to be done.

Kris: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can imagine it also brings a lot of compassion to this self because then you're like, I get why I'm doing this all the time. Of course I'm doing this because I'm a three or a seven. Um. And you don't have to beat yourself up about, or think you should be different in [00:09:00] some ways. Not that you, you can't work on things in your life or your personality, but, um.

That's what I'm hearing from

Ali: you. Yeah, and I love that you brought that up. 'cause I will say that's probably the number one thing that happened for me when I figured out my type was the amount of self-compassion that I could bring to myself. Because a lot of it, and what I tell my clients, a lot of it is like feedback you've received through your life that becomes.

Part of you, right? And we don't necessarily need to carry all that feedback or own that feedback. And sometimes it's in, you know, the eye of the person giving it to you. So for an Enneagram seven or myself, a lot of feedback that I get is I do too much. I'm always on the go. I never slow down. I wanna see and do all the things I can't focus, right?

So it becomes part of your identity and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. So therefore you see yourself as someone who doesn't complete things, who wants too much. But the reality is, is like that is my comfort zone. And now that I've grown, matured, and done the work, I know how to close the loop. I know when to sit still, but I also really love that part of myself.

And I think I was denying it for a while, specifically maybe in those younger [00:10:00] years with my children, because I thought I should be a certain way. 'cause I think my behavior or my motivation didn't align with some other Enneagram types, right? So now that I can see that, I say, oh, okay. For example, a type one.

Perfectionist sevens and ones are quite opposite, so I always say like a seven can learn a lot from a one and a one can learn a lot from a seven, right? Because a one is much more like structured systems. Logic or sevens are no. Spontaneous and optimistic, but a one can be uncomfortable with a seven's behavior.

Mm-hmm. And a seven can be uncomfortable with a one's behavior. And if we can just name that discomfort, it just allows us to depersonalize. We're just not the same. We don't want the same things, but we can have the language to meet in the middle. And so that piece of self-awareness, which is why I think it's so effective as a business owner when you're working with people, whether you're in a team, so that you can name these differences, and then just find a way to connect.

It really is so simple.

Kris: It's so beautiful. I, I feel like Enneagram has kind of blown up over the last few years. I know Donald Miller, who's my mentor, is creating a whole course on [00:11:00] Enneagram. Oh, no way. Really everything he does is, you know, with founders and business owners, and I think it's been such an incredible tool.

I'm curious how you use it, um, in the coaching process. Like I'd love to hear a story about a founder or a client that came to you, what they were struggling with, and how you integrated Enneagram to really move them forward. I.

Ali: Yes, for sure. I mean, it's such a beautiful tool. I use it with all of my clients.

Um, we meet initially, like in our first session, I will do more of like a background and an intake and then I wait to the Enneagram in the second session because I'm, you know, just trying to get to know everyone. Uh, so I would say, I mean, people come to me for all different reasons. A lot of times it might just be confidence.

Leadership mindset. Sometimes it's strategy, uh, sometimes transition. I don't know what I, what my, what's next is I need to know how to leverage my business, whatever it might be. But one, one story that comes up, um, to me was a female, like kind of co-founder and president of a company. And she was really very high level in her work and her role, but found [00:12:00] herself.

Feeling more responsible for her team members and essentially like the wellbeing and the culture of the company and really struggling to maintain that balance, which with the strategy, right, and with the business goals. And with the outcomes. And so we did her Enneagram. We found that she's a type two.

Okay, so type two is the helper and the motivation for the type two is to be liked and appreciated.

Kris: Hmm.

Ali: Right. So imagine walking through the world and your actions are about trying to get that appreciation right. And trying to feel liked that can be debilitating.

Kris: Mm-hmm.

Ali: Right? That can be something that stands in your way every day.

And, and two, because they tend to be feelers and they're deeply empathic, they're carrying like the weight and the feelings of the people. Around them constantly. Mm-hmm. So the work for the two is to really be able to also depersonalize and desensitize and for all of the effort that they put on others to actually put on themselves.

Kris: Mm-hmm.

Ali: And sometimes twos can have a story that taking care of the self is selfish. So that's something we worked on. Right. So first of all, like you Matter and twos can sometimes use [00:13:00] helping others as a way to deflect from their needs.

Mm.

Right. Like, don't pay attention to me. I'm fine. I'm deflecting, I'm helping others, and they have a harder time setting boundaries.

Mm. So once we kind of were able to name what was going on and the motivation behind why she was overextended, right? And taking care of all these needs, it was, we were able to kind of help with the boundaries, put up a bit of a barrier, and then really have like her professional goals be about, yes, both can be true.

You can have connection. With your team, right? You can be there, but you also can be strategic. You also don't have to take this home with you. Mm-hmm. And also your needs matter. So having that language to talk about it, it's like, I mean, transformative. I would say she would probably admit that she's, I mean like a full 180 since when we first started working together.

Kris: Right, right. Like you really like a doctor, like diagnosed what was going on under the hood named it, brought awareness to it, and I love that you shared. The, the, there's a story going on and which gives us agency around, okay, if this is a story, why don't we tweak the [00:14:00] story or adjust it or change it? And I imagine every Enneagram number has their own stories that are, that show up a lot.

Is that right?

Ali: It's so true. I'm actually doing a talk this evening on the Enneagram, and the point that I'm speaking to is the, you know, our internal question, the stories we tell ourselves based on type, right? So what we say to ourselves. So the type one, for example is, am I good enough? Hmm. Right. So that's, that's the self-talk that's happening, right.

Am I good enough? Right. And then a type five is, 'cause their motivation is to understand, do I know enough?

Kris: Let's go through each one.

Ali: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I wanna

Kris: hear. Yeah.

Ali: Yeah. So the type one is gonna be, am I good enough? Right? Because the type ones are always seeking to do the right thing. So for also the audience maybe recognizing themselves in any of these types, it's like.

They're, you're a rule follower, right? If you're type one, you're a rule follower, so you're always trying to be better and do the right thing. Um, yeah. The type two is often, do you like me? Right? And they're worth, so the story with them is like, their worth is equates to how much they [00:15:00] give.

Kris: Uh,

Ali: right. Yeah.

So that can be, that would

Kris: be a, a recipe for burnout, right?

Ali: Yeah, it really is. And I would say from a burnout perspective, they're definitely one of my top burnout clients because of that giver syndrome or like that obligation that they have to others. Um, for the type three, um, failure's not an option.

Am I'm successful in that. Ah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So three, because they're so goal oriented, they kind of, their success is measured on outcome.

Kris: Yeah.

Ali: Right. And less on essentially like being, so like the work for the three is really around, um, like connecting to your values, connecting to your emotions, like being curious about, do I even like what I'm doing?

Mm-hmm.

Ali: Like, am I just on this trajectory? Because it's like what society expects

Kris: mm-hmm.

Ali: What the world thinks I should be doing. And so sometimes there's a disconnect. Between the head and the heart for the three

Kris: mm. My gosh. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Keep going.

Ali: This is so good. This is so, and then the type four is, 'cause the motivation for the four is around being unique.

Okay. So they have this strong desire to be different, but then the story that they're asking [00:16:00] themselves, why does everyone else have it so easy? Right? Like, why can't I just figure things out? Right. So they are, so they're, they're what I call like the deep sea divers because they're so emotive and they're so inward.

So if you work with a four or have a four client, it's like design creativity is on the forefront, but there's also. This like need to be deep all the time.

Kris: Mm.

Ali: So for them, they kind of tend to be in work that has like more purpose or creativity, but they also, their work is to be able to lighten up a bit.

Right. And kind of be more logical and less emotive.

Kris: Okay. Okay.

Ali: Type fives are actually our logical type. So their motivation is to understand, so like I mentioned, it's more like, do I know enough? So type vibes won't really come out. And like say, present, or maybe they wouldn't feel comfortable speaking until they had all the answers.

The reality is, is we never have all the answers. Mm-hmm. But there's a fear around not being seen as knowledgeable.

Kris: Okay.

Ali: Type sixes. So those are a loyal skeptic. So the motivation for the six is to be safe. Right. So the sixes operate, um, on the philosophy that something [00:17:00] could always go wrong. So they're always examining like what could go wrong and what could go right before they make a decision.

And so sometimes for them, um, they feel like they have the weight of the world on their shoulders. 'cause if no one else knows where the emergency exit is, they must need to know. Yeah. Right. So you may have a friend like this or a client who's like always prepared. Checks all the Yelp reviews, right? Has all the bandaid.

Yep, definitely sunscreen.

Kris: Good friend to have. Definitely

Ali: not

Kris: me. Not

Ali: me, definitely. Me neither. No, I'm already

diving into the shallow water.

Um, so then, yeah, so the seven is the enthusiastic, the visionary, as I said. So the motivation to experience it all. So the story with the seven is really around, um.

Freedom, right? Like, do I have freedom? Am I, I don't wanna feel confined, I need to be in choice, right? So some of the work I do is like, talk is about how you communicate with different types as well. So if you're communicating with a seven, it's like you wanna communicate with options. We could go A, B, or C.

What do you think? It's collaborative and communicative. So their story is like, I must do all the things. I must have all the fun. So that does become an identity piece for them, and it can become too much of a good thing. Mm-hmm. So [00:18:00] that's with the Enneagram, if you're kind of overly saturated in your motivation, that's where you need to figure out, how do I draw that back?

Kris: Mm.

Ali: Right. Because it becomes unhealthy, right? Mm-hmm. Too competitive, too perfectionistic, you know, to experiential. Our type eights are the challengers or controllers, and their motivation is. To control. They wanna control the outcome. They're fearless leaders. They're really justice oriented. They're very direct.

Mm.

So the story that they tell themselves is that power is more important than vulnerability. Mm. They have a really hard time opening up. I see a lot of this in the workspace of just like a lot of eights in leadership positions, but not feeling like they can be vulnerable, the team. So they come across more in that classic kind of top down management.

It doesn't work. Um, so I sometimes say they're kind of like spiky on the outside, but like marshmallow on the inside. Oh yeah. But I just have really a hard time. Like you have to build trust with them.

Kris: Yeah.

Ali: And then our nines. Um, so they're the peacemakers. So the motivation for harmony, uh, conflict avoidant.

And so their story to themselves is almost that their needs don't matter. So they would rather, like, they don't wanna create a ripple, so I'm fine, you're fine, we're [00:19:00] fine, everyone's fine. But what can happen is they can withdraw, right? So we don't hear from them as much. They're not speaking their needs and they can even have a hard time knowing what they want, right?

So it's less even about fear what I want, but not, but just not being able to, um, tap into their intuition.

Kris: Wow. Yeah. Ugh, that's so interesting. Yeah, so I work with a fair amount of leadership coaches and consultants, and the thing I hear a lot from them, like an underlying theme again and again, is I have a big vision.

I have a great team, but I can't get, the team rallied behind my vision and I can't get them aligned, and I can't get them to execute without me having to constantly make it happen for them. So what would you say to that? I know you, you do some work with teams like. I can only imagine that having this awareness for each of the team members would bring, again, back to the Kim, compassion, back to the back, to the understanding.

But, uh, tell us another story about what's happened for a team.

Ali: Yes. So, [00:20:00] and I mean, I could say so many things about this. 'cause like you said, with the diagnosis, like I have my fingers, you know, together, I'm like, okay, how do I make this better? Because I consider myself a problem solver, right? Because I wanna diagnose.

So,

Kris: yeah.

Ali: Um, I mean, I've worked with so many different types of teens and it does often start with the leader, right? Like what you're talking about. So we have a leader that's maybe if we're talking in the Enneagram of a certain type and they're not. Feeling like their team is hearing them, right? They're not feeling like there's a connection.

Their team is not performing. So we'll use our Type eight as an example, because I often see the eights more as a leader in these spaces. And then I'm gonna throw, I'm gonna make up a team. So we've got two nines, maybe a one and a four, and you've got an eight liter. So with our eight liter, they tend to be so direct and so assertive.

They don't want fluff, flowery language, nothing. Right? They're like, this is the job. This is what needs to be done, and let's do it. You also can speak to an eight like that. They are not offended. They actually prefer it. I think where things get misaligned is that, you know, we're taught. Kinda growing up, like treat others how you would wanna be treated.

I think in the Enneagram, I think about treat others how they want to be treated. [00:21:00] Mm. Right. So the shift comes in with our leader. Right. If you're a, that

Kris: could be the ti. That could be a title of a book. That could be a title of a leadership book. Yes.

Ali: Because it's true. Right. Foundationally, of course, let's all treat each other well.

Right. But beyond that, I like, I wanna see you and understand you and figure out how to meet you, where you're at.

Kris: Mm-hmm.

Ali: Right? So how do you want feedback? How do you deal in conflict? So in that space with the team, my goal is to help like my nines come forward and. Speak. Right. Teaching them how to be more assertive and meeting our eight is very important.

Kris: Mm-hmm.

Ali: Teaching our eight, how to lean back and give space for our nine is very important because we all have this lens on productivity. Right. And kind of that type A personality. And unfortunately that's just been the way leadership has looked for so long. I'm trying to make room for. All the types, right?

Mm-hmm. I'm trying to make room for introverts, extroverts, whatever it might be, so that we all can be seen and valued. Mm-hmm. For our strengths, right? Because a nine to a team brings diplomacy, collaboration, right? They have a global perspective, they have their own superpower.

Mm-hmm.

And then if we move to [00:22:00] our ones once and eights tend to connect slightly more easy because they're both a direct.

Enneagram type, and they tend to be very structured and want outcomes. Um, so you, they might, there might be an alliance on that team and not a lot to talk about. But then if we bring our four, our fours are deeply emotional, deeply creative. They want to have long conversations. They wanna be seen in the one heard, and eight is like one minute and I'm out.

Four is like book a two hour meeting. So how I work with that is just naming it, right? I'm coming in, I'm naming it, I'm giving some tools. Maybe we're working through feedback. 'cause that's part of it too is like how we speak to each other and how we get feedback. Every Enneagram type has a feedback style that they prefer.

And we kind of go through that as well. So then, you know, with the eight, it's like you can send them one text and they're fine, right? They don't need a meeting, they don't wanna go deep into it. But a one, for example, who's already so hard on themself, you need to make sure that you're succinct and complimentary.

Right? So depending on where they are. So that's how we kind of fuse together to make the team more cohesive and more empath.

Kris: Yeah. Yeah. That would be a complete and total game changer. [00:23:00] I mean, it should, it really should be a requirement for all leaders to provide this, or all corporations big and small, to have this integrated into their, their team.

Ali: Yes.

Kris: Yeah.

Ali: Because they all wanna be seen and heard, and it's really just a framework and almost like. You know, there's some people who do kind of how best to work with me. You know, that idea. And I think the Enneagram is like that. Like now that you know my strengths, 'cause every type has strengths and challenges and blind spots,

Kris: right?

Ali: Right. So now that you know this about me, now that you know how I am in conflict. Mm-hmm. Right? Am I reactive or am I withdrawn? Right? So just knowing this about each other helps us not take it personally.

Kris: Right.

Ali: And then it gives your leaders like. A card for performance, like how do I motivate you if you're a type three?

I set some clear goals.

Kris: Right?

Ali: Right. I, I acknowledge you. I may publicly talk about you and say how great you are, and you're like, I'm good. Let's keep going. You know? How easy is that?

Kris: Totally. You know, and I think with AI these days, as a leader, you could. Put your whole team's profile into AI and be [00:24:00] like, okay, how are we gonna navigate the review, the motivation, the goal check-ins, all the communication.

Exactly. Yeah,

Ali: it's really that simple because, and, and when you really hone in on the uniqueness of each of the types and the individuals, it does give you that framework, like our type fives for example. They tend to be more, they're incredible boundary setters and they tend to retreat. They like to be in their cave.

They kind of like to be alone. And so if you're having a meeting with them about feedback, they're not engaging right away. They need time. They need to the permission walk away process come back to me tomorrow. But we don't give people time, right? We want answers now. We want the, you know, strategic plan by the time we walk out that door.

And not everyone operates like that,

Kris: right?

Ali: Yeah. So to get the best out of your team, you just need to know their motivation.

Kris: Totally. Wow, that's really cool. So do you, with the people that you work with, do they come to you with common complaints or frustrations? Like are they, like I do they ha do they struggle with imposter syndrome or what are they navigating that you help them with?

Ali: [00:25:00] Such a good question. As you say, imposter syndrome, I'm nodding. Ferociously. Um, yes. Uh, and I primarily work with women. I do have some male clients, but for the most part I work with women. So I usually feel like it's a combination of like strategy and mindset. And the common theme really is, um. I would say perfectionism, imposter syndrome, confidence.

Mm-hmm. So, and it shows up and burnout. So probably those four things. Right?

Kris: Oh my gosh. Everyone who everyone was listening to this is like, okay, they're tuning in right now.

Ali: Right. Okay,

Kris: keep going. Yes,

Ali: exactly. And so. Not everyone can sometimes name it as well. Like I always say, people kind of come to me with an initial problem, which is like, yeah, I'm not, you know, I'm trying to get a promotion.

Maybe like that's the goal, right? Or I'm trying to scale my business, whatever it might be. But, but behind that really is more like the self-awareness and the self work, right? Because it's about what. The things that you say to yourself, the thoughts that you believe, right? Right. The things you believe to be true, your limiting beliefs.

Kris: Right,

Ali: right. And those are all, that's that

Kris: story. That story, that

Ali: story. Back to the story, right? Yeah. And this is all a construct of society. Like these are [00:26:00] not true. Right? It's either something that someone's told you or you've held onto since. Great school, right? Mm-hmm. So my work is to help people kind of dismantle these stories, right?

And ask like, are they true? And if they are, I would like to see the evidence and then let's work from there, right? Yeah. So while we're doing this work, like on the imposter syndrome, it's just. That's something that someone has almost chosen to believe. And sometimes when we're stretching and growing, um, you know that inner critic, that voice is about keeping us safe.

Kris: Mm-hmm.

Ali: Right? So don't take that risk. Don't take that leap. Stay where you are 'cause it'll save you. Embarrassment, failure, all of that. I am pro fail. I am pro. Put yourself out there because that's how we learn. Mm. Right? But a lot of times people don't have that sounding board or that partner to support them through this, right?

Mm-hmm. So when I'm working with my clients, I'm like, I am here for you, right? Like, I've got you. You try this, right? You put yourself out there, you do this pitch, whatever it is, and if it doesn't work, we regroup. We just evaluate what we, what do we wanna do differently next time? And I think what's happened is that we all hold our worth close to like outcomes or perfection.

And so when we [00:27:00] don't meet those goals, we hide, right? And then shame comes and then we get stuck and I'm just like, fail forward everyone. And I think men have a lot of an easier time doing that than women. And so that's why my work, I feel like, is so focused on women because I just think more empowered, women leaders, better world.

Kris: Oh yes. Hell yeah. Yeah. We really need that so badly right now. Yes. Your work is so important. Thank you. I'm so, I'm so happy you're doing this. And I love what you shared about the mindset work. Yes, of course. But then the strategy and pairing those two things together and the importance of the strategy too in, in the process.

So,

Ali: yeah, and just understanding your strengths and challenges. Like I have a client who's, uh, also an Enneagram seven, which means she does a lot of the things. All the things. And so working with her was like, you know, mindset, but also just like narrowing her focus. Yeah. Right. So I know that she wanted to do all this stuff or have all these offers per se, and we're like, what?

Actually aligns with your motivation. What are your values? What's important to you? Yeah. And let's go deep instead of feeling like she's spread so thin. Mm. [00:28:00] Now if I was working with a type one, it would be more the opposite. Let's expand your horizons. Right. Let's see what's possible. Right, right. So it's just so interesting being able to tap into like these blind spots that we all have, and then helping people build these businesses or careers that align with like who they truly are and what they

Kris: want.

It's so beautiful. I talk so much about the clients that I work with, the founders, the coaches, the consultants. They are so close to their own, their own self, their own brilliance, their own work that they're, I liken it to like they're inside of a bottle trying to read the label that can only be read from the outside.

And I tell my clients, I'm like, yes, you've been struggling with. Finding the right words to talk about what you do. I get it. It's, it is in many ways a writing problem, a messaging problem, but. Half of it is just a perspective problem. I can come in here with fresh eyes and look at you and look at your business and to me, the golden nuggets of who they are and their story and their, [00:29:00] their, their brilliance.

Like it's very easy for me to identify that. I'm noticing with the work that you're doing is very in alignment with that. Like you're able to come in, they're so close to the struggles that they're having in their life and much of it they've been carrying around since childhood. So it's like right here and, and you're like, describe your hand.

But their hand is like right here. Right here against their face. You can't describe it, but you get to come in with your tools and with your perspective and with your wisdom, and diagnose and decipher and make sense of the things that don't make any sense.

Ali: Yeah, it's so true. It's so similar. Mm-hmm. And exactly.

I always say I'm meeting people where they're at today. I don't know your history. I don't know how people see you. You're not someone's brothers, wife, sister, whoever like you are you today. So looking at being able to give someone the gift of looking at them with fresh eyes from a completely like neutral space.

Like my only goal is to see a higher vision of you than you can see for [00:30:00] yourself.

Kris: Mm. I love that. Will you repeat that one more time?

Ali: My goal is to see a higher vision for you than you can see for yourself.

Kris: I love that so much. I have been talking lately, or I've had a couple conversations lately about the difference between coaching and therapy, and both are important.

I've done both. Um, but I have found that coaching can be. So powerful in that you're like, you are really honing in on where are you today, and not that some of the past beliefs aren't at play in the current day, but. I think it's so much more empowering to kind of go, okay, here, where are we right now and where do we wanna be and how are we gonna map out that plan, rather than kind of marinating in the why this, why that, why this?

Like gaining some understanding, but really moving forward with tools. I just, I love coaching in that way.

Ali: I, no, I agree with you. And I think, like you said, there's a place for both of it. I don't [00:31:00] think I would have the confidence or the clarity that I do today if I hadn't had years of therapy. So I think that part, you know, understanding my childhood, understanding the dynamics, understanding my family.

I think even with the Enneagram, they say that it's formed in kind of child like grade school years, how we got our needs met sometimes within the family dynamic. Mm. So I think that part's really interesting. But I agree. Like my role is to meet you where you are today and move forward. And there is something therapeutic about obviously being in therapy and being able to process.

But most of my clients who've come to me have had some amount of therapy.

Kris: Mm-hmm.

Ali: And I think that's such a great kind of entry point. So they know their patterns a bit. They know of maybe why they aren't the way they are, but they're ready to just let that go.

Mm-hmm.

Right. No one wants to hang around and the I am this way because my parents did X, Y, Z.

We're all grown adults, so I think we, yeah. Process it, work with it, and then let's move on and, and really feel empowered that we're in choice because that's also what the Enneagram is about. Being in choice. Like I may be a seven, but I don't have to necessarily live in that seven energy 24 7. I probably.

Would be living a very [00:32:00] different life if that was the case.

Right. Like I do need to be a parent and I need to run a business and I need to be responsible. Yeah.

Right. So I get to choose when I wanna bring that energy in, or when I wanna go to my more quiet type five self. Right. And read my book. Mm-hmm.

Or be on a solo retreat or whatever that might be.

Kris: Mm-hmm. Mm. All right. Um. As we're wrapping up today, if someone is listening right now and they are feeling stuck or overwhelmed, what is one thing that you would tell them to do first?

Ali: I think it's just clarity. Ask yourself some questions, right? I would say ask yourself what's working, what's not, and what do I wanna do about it?

Kris: If somebody wants to discover their Enneagram, where would they go to figure that out?

Ali: Yeah. So after those questions, then figure out your Enneagram. There's lots of resources out there, but I have a quiz that I've developed, which I would call like an entry level Enneagram quiz, just so that you can kind of understand your where.

You lie in that space. Um, I also do Enneagram, [00:33:00] single Enneagram coaching sessions as well, so I do offer just a one-time session. Okay. Most of my clients I work with for six months at a time and we incorporate the Enneagram, but if you're just curious more on what's my type and how do I apply it with my current circumstances, I offer that as well.

And then of course, numerous books and resources and all of that up there as well.

Kris: Yeah. Yeah. Um, que one question for you. So you mentioned Enneagram is often formed in the grade school years, so you are not born into your type necessarily.

Ali: Right. So I think the idea is nature nurture. Okay. So I think part of us is like in kind of our DNA, we're set out to be a certain way, right?

Mm-hmm. And it's funny because I notice like with parents and in partnerships, people having conflicts, feeling like, well, I can sort of change or influence. So it's like in some ways we really can't, like people kind of are who they are, but we can make suggestions, right? You know that you're a parent of an 8-year-old, right?

I mean, how much control do you really have? Yeah. And choice, choice, choice, choice. Exactly. And so I think with the. Environment, though I do think environment matters because when we're in a family dynamic, there is a role for [00:34:00] everyone.

Kris: Mm-hmm.

Ali: Right. So I could share within my family my, I only found this out later, but it was very clarifying for me to understand the role of people in my family.

I was raised by a single mom, she's a nine. So Harmony peacekeeper. I have one older brother, he's also a nine. Harmony peacekeeper. Okay. So they're keeping a lot of peace and I'm like, I'm gonna go party. I don't know. Right. So I feel like, I just felt like it was just an interesting dynamic where I thought, well, does, you know, could my mom lean in more?

Right. This is the question I'd had my whole life. And then once I realized her type, I thought it's just not in her nature. Yeah. It's not that she doesn't care, it's just the way that she was showing up. Mm-hmm. And I felt like we had kind of a. It was my single mom, so sort of less like socioeconomic, you know, kind of like luxury.

So I felt very confined and restricted by what we were able to do. So I didn't travel growing up.

Kris: Mm-hmm.

Ali: Right. I didn't play sports. I didn't have choice. Right. There wasn't a lot of choice. So I think my reaction to that environment was like, I'm gonna make this life. The best that I can.

Kris: Yeah,

Ali: right. I'm heading to Europe.

Throw on a backpack. See you later. Right at 19, because I just thought I, I need this part in order for me to feel like fulfilled. Right. So I think that that happens at that time. [00:35:00] Your instincts kind of show up then. But I do think you're also a product too, of obviously your parents and then of course some DNA as well.

Kris: Totally.

Ali: Mm-hmm.

Kris: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I love that you offer a one-time session for people to dip their toe in and get some clarity. Tell us where we can find you and the best way to work with you.

Ali: Yeah, so you can find me on my website is allie dunn.com. On Instagram, I'm Enneagram by Allie, so I have some little videos and tips and tricks there.

And then also on LinkedIn. So the best way to work with me really is. Um, on my website, you can book a discovery call, see if we're a fit for coaching, or you can directly book that one time Enneagram session. And what I love about that session is I also send you an intake form, so you got a 23 page report plus a little intake so I can find out what your goals are and I tailor the session to match your goals.

Mm. This is not just who are you, this is who are you and what do you wanna do about it? Right. How does it apply? Because I'm very much equal being and doing. Right?

Kris: Yeah.

Ali: Action is important.

Kris: Okay, everybody, go to allie dunn.com and take the [00:36:00] quiz. Book a session. I'm going to book a session myself and I cannot wait.

Thank you for being here today.

Ali: Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.

Is your website turning away Potential clients? I can help you turn that around. Book a moneymaking messaging call with me today and we'll transform your story into your most powerful sales tool. That's all for this episode of From Click to Client. Don't forget to subscribe and follow. I'm Chris Jones and I'll see you next.