Getting Off the Hamster Wheel of the 9 to 5

Creative Chats with Mike Brennan, and Kris Jones

Speaker 1 (00:00):

And then the workshop ended and I had literally a line of people lined up wanting to get my information and work with me. And I don't say that because, well, I'm so great or in demand. I say that because that's the power of effective storytelling. When you're clear and you clearly show the result that you provide for people, they want to work with you.

Speaker 2 (00:31):

Welcome

Speaker 3 (00:32):

To the Creative podcast with Mike gr.

(00:40):

Welcome friends to another episode of Creative Chats. It's the podcast for artist makers and content creators where we talk about creativity, the creative process and story. I'm your host, Mike Brennan. You can connect with me over on Instagram. I'm at Mike Bone or on my website, which is mike brennan.me. Hey, I'd love for you to stop by daily creative habit.com. I've created several resources with you in mind as a creative person. First, there's a link to our free private Facebook group called Daily Creative Habit. It is filled with creatives of all types who have raised their hands to say, I want to show up more consistently for my creativity and craft. And so if that's you, we would love to see you as part of this group. There's also a link to receive our free Daily Creative Habit email newsletter. This goes out twice a week and is filled with resources and inspiration and daily prompts for you as a creative person to make sure that you keep showing up every single day for your creativity.

(01:40):

And lastly, there's a link out to the new Daily Creative Habit Guided Creativity Journal. And this is something that I'm really excited about because it's a 90 day journey that you can go on that guides you to plan and show up for your creativity and help you track and help you measure and figure out exactly what it is that you want to do and how you want to do it. This is available right now through amazon.com. So I had a delightful conversation with Kris Jones from Red Door Designs, and sometimes you're in the middle of your journey and you can't see from inside of it. You can't see where you're going, you can't see maybe where you need to go. And so it can be a little frustrating to not have that clarity. And I love that the conversation I had today with Kris, we explore her journey, what that looked like from just finding her passion, pursuing it, getting the right people around her, pursuing opportunities that ultimately led to work with companies like Nike and Adidas and Jeff Bezos.

(02:52):

I mean, her client roster is impressive, but even more so is her desire to follow her that unlocked the next part of her journey, and she continues to do that. We talk about the struggles and the advantages of owning your own creative business and the importance of leveling up by surrounding yourselves with people who are excellent at what they do. And it's important to have that kind of community, that kind of colleague relationship with people. Whatever industry you may be in, or even if you're a hobbyist or someone who's pursuing your creativity for your own pleasure, I think surrounding yourself with people who make you better is tremendous. And so we talk about all those things weaved into her story, her experiences. I love that we had this great conversation centered around creativity. So without further ado, here is my creative chat with Kris Jones. Well, Kris, welcome to the Creative Chats podcast. Thanks for being here today.

Speaker 1 (04:05):

Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here, Mike.

Speaker 3 (04:08):

Yes. And so before we actually started recording, we're talking just about so many of the great things that you're involved in and just your creativity. I can't wait to dive more into your story and your journey and find out just what that has looked like leading you up to where you are today. But before we get too far down the road there, why don't you give the little soundbite of who you are, what you do?

Speaker 1 (04:32):

Okay. My name is Kris, as you know. I have a boutique firm in Portland, Oregon, and I help self-employed people, craft a clear message so they can focus on the work that they love and make money doing it.

Speaker 3 (04:50):

Love it, love it. Very clear, very concise, which is part of your deal. If you didn't have that in line and you're telling you're helping other people with that, that wouldn't be too great.

(05:05):

I guess you'd be surprised at how many people out there really are stuck in an unclear place, and even people who would love to help other people or maybe are helping other people. And yet, it's that thing where when you go to do it for other people, it's easy, but when you do it for yourself, all of a sudden you get in your own way. It becomes very difficult. And at times there's too much emotion involved or too many pieces to sort through. And so I love that you're helping people do this and that you've done it for yourself, obviously. And I'm loving where this is going already, so

Speaker 1 (05:48):

Me too. Yeah, it's so true. It's that bottle effect where you're inside the bottle and you can't get perspective to read the bottle. It's true for all of us. So I love letting people off the hook around that because it's not you. Everybody struggles with talking about themselves in a clear and compelling way. Yeah. So it's no one's deficient in that. It's just really hard to do.

Speaker 3 (06:19):

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious, this isn't probably something that you thought when you were a kid where you're like, I know what I want to do. I want to help people with their messaging and things like that. So let's dial things back to Kris as a kid. And how did creativity show up for you then? Was it the normal drawing or writing or just playing with certain games or toys that helped foster creativity fill us in on? Where did the origins start?

Speaker 1 (06:56):

Yeah, I mean, so early, I think for all creatives, it's like we don't know what it's like to not be creative. So it started for sure, early withdrawing, and then I started making three-dimensional objects. I would make a purse out of paper, and then I would make three dimensional items that would go into that purse and I would color them, and then I'd tape them and I'd have lipstick and copying my mom's purse basically. And I loved doing things like that. I loved watching a transformation. I would even just take dirty coins and polish them. I loved watching something kind of, gosh, I haven't talked about this in maybe ever, but watching, transforming something from kind of tarnished to really beautiful and shiny. And then as I got a little bit older, I would just lose myself in creative projects. I went to a birthday party one time, and my name is Kris.

(08:01):

So the mother of the child gave me a cookie, and it was in the shape of a letter K, and everybody got a cookie with their at first initial on it. Well, our job was to decorate the cookie. And so I was obsessed with that. The whole party went on, people went on to do, pin the tail on the donkey and go outside for a scavenger hunt. I was at the table decorating my letter K with sprinkles and frosting. And I think in hindsight, that was kind of in a way kind of profound. It's like my first love of design and typography, and that continued. It took me a while to get that, but it started really early. And then the other thing that I did often was figure out ways to make money. So that entrepreneurial piece came in very, very early, like age seven or eight.

(09:10):

Somehow I talked my mom into getting business cards printed. So I had a company called Kristen's Crafts, and it had little rainbow balloon border on it. And I did two things that I remember. I went around and I picked flowers, and then I smooshed them up and made perfume really ugly, horrible colored perfume. And then I would go door to door and try and sell it to some neighbor. That felt bad for me. And then the other thing I would do is I would take my paint pens and I would decorate just random objects like a toothbrush. I'd buy a bunch of toothbrushes, and then I'd decorate them with paint pens, and then I'd go around and sell thoses, which is just ridiculous. But it was my first introduction to like, well, I can make something for pretty much nothing and get money. Earn money with it.

Speaker 3 (10:21):

Yeah, I love asking that question because so often there are clues to where somebody is now if they've been able to tap into that. And so that whole thing, you mentioned the word transformation and taking some things and taking pieces of things and making something new or using them as ingredients and designing something. And so much of that goes into what you do now in the copywriting and the website putting together for people. So it's interesting because so often we're just trying to reclaim some things that we used to do when we were kids in some form or fashion.

Speaker 1 (11:06):

And

Speaker 3 (11:06):

It feels more true when we do that.

Speaker 1 (11:10):

Yeah, it's really validating. It's really validating. And when I talk about it now, it feels so obvious, but all through my college years, I had no idea what I wanted to do. I didn't even know graphic design was a profession or design or marketing or anything. I just thought, oh, I'll pick from the 15 options available at my college and ended up graduating with a degree in education. But I knew I didn't want to do that. And so yeah, I was stumped. Even with all these stories that I'm sharing was still like, what should I do for my profession? We have to think that the creative part has to be separate from the work that we do,

Speaker 3 (12:03):

And often when we're in the middle of it, we just can't see because we're too close to it. Even the other things we talked about before, it's something that when you look back and then you can find some dots to connect and you have to reapply a different skin to it. So it's like, well, what is making a paper person some paper items that's not going to career? I can't make money from that, but it planted the seeds and it grew into something else. And then maybe there was a process even that started back then, or just your telling of your first entrepreneurial endeavor. It taught you something. And that grew into something larger, obviously, but it was the starting place and it needed to find a place to go into the ground then so it could sprout up. And so when we look at these things now, the hindsight, right? It's 2020, but in the middle of it, it can be a little daunting and discouraging and a lot of questions. Right?

Speaker 1 (13:12):

Totally.

Speaker 3 (13:13):

Yeah. So let me ask, you said you graduated with a degree in education, so how did you then make the shift or what happened? Tell us now the next part of the story, because obviously that's not where you are now. Right?

Speaker 1 (13:30):

Right. So I think the best thing that I did was graduate with a degree that I knew I wasn't interested in and to buy myself time. I just took off to Europe and I traveled all through Europe, just backpacking, and I just was like, oh, God. In the back of my mind, I'm like, I've got to figure out what I want to do and I'll just keep traveling until it kind of clicks. And that was number one. It was so much fun. I ended up, I traveled all over the place, but I ended up landing on the southern coast of Turkey, and I fell in love with that place, and I witnessed a different way to live there. It was just a very active town with a lot of paragliding and outdoor sports and just a totally different way of life. And also the European influence.

(14:33):

My mind blew open around how other people live as Americans, we kind of get into this hamster wheel of like, oh, this is what I have to do because this is what everybody does. But in Turkey, it was a seasonal town, so people would come in for spring and summer and part of fall, and then they'd travel for the winter, and then they'd come back. And so I was just like, oh, this is possible. And so that really opened up something in me. The other really important thing that happened was I became really good friends with a lot of other travelers, and two of which were graphic designers. So we would hang out. We hung out all the time, and they would talk about their work, and they were both Australians. And one of 'em came back to Portland with me at one point, and we went to Powell's books, which maybe people have heard of, and she bought all these books on design. So it just continued to open up my awareness about this as a career. And then shortly thereafter, I signed up for some classes at the local community college and was completely minute one of class number one. I was like, ah, yes, this is it. And I was only, I think 23 ish at the time. So I was still young, but, and so I spent a couple years really going deep into the learning of all that, but that's how it began.

Speaker 3 (16:25):

Gotcha. Yeah. So I love that you used the word possibilities, because that's something that travel and being introduced to other people who have different experiences than you starts to open your eyes and go, yeah, what's possible. Maybe you're not happy with the situation you're in. Maybe there's something different that you think could be out there. And just to come face to face with that and go, what's possible and what can that look like for me? I love that that made you get curious and follow that curiosity. So often I think it's at that crossroads where we find ourselves going, okay, do I follow my curiosity? And if I do, I need to be open to what that looks like, what comes next? And it may not be what we think. It may not. We may not even have a picture of what comes next, but we just go, okay, take the right next step. And it's evident from your journey that that's what you did. You continue to lean in, be curious, follow the right next steps. And so you go to school for this, you're taking classes for this, and then you graduate, and do you go to work for a company? Do you automatically go out on your own? What does that look like? And what fed into your decisions there?

Speaker 1 (17:42):

Yeah, I got about a year into school. I got an internship, which I just think is the best invention ever. Everybody should do internships because you get to practice and learn about what you like, what you don't like, what you're good at. And anyway, I got this wonderful internship with a guy who became a mentor to me. Keith is his name, and he just really saw potential in me and hired me for eight 50 an hour, but still I was like, I'm getting paid to do this. I can't even believe it. And I was so grateful and I learned so much. And then eventually I got hired into more traditional ad agency that was a design firm. And then I got hired into a traditional ad agency as an art director, and I got my own office. So I felt like a real big girl, a real adult.

(18:51):

And I spent a couple years doing that and just kind of understanding what that means. The culture that I was in was very micromanaged. It felt like kind of a little bit. I loved it. I loved the work. But after a couple years, I was like, oh my gosh. It really was clear to me that it was time to step out on my own. And so I jumped off that ledge and kind of started freelancing essentially, and thinking like, oh, I'll freelance for a while and then see what comes next. And then it just kept working out. So at the beginning though, I would walk, I rented an office, I'd walk to my office and I would have no work. I would organize my fonts and do random stuff. And then I think a year later I got a job offer from a company called Taylor made out of San Diego, and I just kind of did the math, and that was my first reality hit of like, oh, this freelance thing is actually able to pay me more than a full-time job, and I'm not having to work like, okay, clear choice, I'm going to keep going. So yeah, that was really the beginning of Red Door Designs. It's been 20 years, which is insane.

Speaker 3 (20:28):

So I'm going to present you with a question that I'm sure some people listening, they're thinking themselves. Okay. So you start out on your own. In the beginning you see you go to the office, and there's really not much happening in there, organizing fonts. I so appreciate that. And that can certainly take a long time. As designers, we love fonts, but I'm wondering, what did you have to do to find clients and how did you find clients? Right? Because so many people, that's what they fear, that they're going to either jump ship from where they are and start their new thing to early maybe, and not have a clientele built up or that clientele. Maybe it dries up because there's so many one-off projects and there's nothing reoccurring happening. And so can you speak into that as far as your experiences and maybe some advice for somebody who's listening?

Speaker 1 (21:22):

Yeah. Yeah. So in the jobs that I had been in, I did a lot of printing. This was back when everything was printed, and I developed really great relationships with my vendors. So the printing companies that I worked with, I got to know them actually. We still worked together. And one of the reps, the print reps gave my name to another ad agency owner, and that agency called me. They were looking for an ongoing freelance, a partner. And so that really, really helped transition me into a situation where I had work that I could rely on because they needed me two days a week. I had this kind of base cushion that I just took the pressure off and took the fear out of the scarcity around, I need a client right now. I'll charge you half price and all that. So I just knew that two days a week I had regular work and the agency, because they worked with, I don't know, probably 10 ish clients, there was just always something to do. So I got to continue to learn, and thank God they came into my life. That really allowed me to feel into and experience what it's like to be a freelancer with regular work. But it's really helpful to have a client like that that isn't just doing one thing. So yeah, that's not happening.

Speaker 3 (23:04):

I'm sure. I'm sure. Did that elevate the quality of clients that you had that you're working on in a certain type of projects? Because then you're not just reaching for, oh, my mom knows somebody who's in this club and needs a whatever. You want to be able to make sure that you're doing things that look professional, that have a certain attraction to even more types of clients that you want to attract in certain industries. So did that factor into what was happening outside your specific freelance agency work?

Speaker 1 (23:41):

Oh, completely. Completely. Because I was not only building my portfolio, but I was building my confidence. And then Portland, most people know this, but Portland is where Nike lives, it's where the headquarters is and also where Adidas is. So what happened was I ended up getting some Nike projects, and then having Nike in my portfolio really elevated things for me, and then kind of the snowball effect. So more and more work started coming my way, and then it got to the point where I didn't really have time to work with the agency two days a week. It was still kind of available for them, but I just recalibrated everything. So yes, a hundred percent, just little by little things started to elevate for me, and more opportunities came around, more connections were made. And then really Nike became a client of mine ongoing for well over a decade, maybe longer.

(24:51):

And when you're working, I ended up for a while working in-house at Nike. And it was funny because I've grown up in Portland, so I'm like, Nike, I know it's an impressive company, but anything, when you grow up around it, you're like, yeah, it's not that big of a deal. But when I worked in-house at Nike and recognized that they were all the designers that were in my group had moved from other countries from all over the world, and these were the best of the best, most talented designers in the world. I'm not saying that I was, but I'm saying that I was around people at that caliber and that quickly, I think my skill level kind of elevated from that.

Speaker 3 (25:52):

It's the power of proximity of a community of people when you are pushing each other to do your best. And yes, the caliber of work and the skill level, the excellence that's required is very different than if you were just simply on your own doing your own thing. You're kind of doing things in a vacuum. And so to have that ability, if people ask me, it's like, is it important to go to art school? What do you think? What's your opinion? And that's always a loaded question, especially these days. But I said, one of the things that I loved about going to art school was that just that it gave me an environment to be in where people were bringing their best. You had to be performing at a certain level or you just were not going to make it. And so that competition, that edge, that whatever you want to call it, that helped you rise to a certain level.

(26:46):

And that's really one of the benefits of being in an environment like that. And the fact that now you have as one of your clients, and it's clearly on your website of like, yes, I've worked with Nike and you've mentioned Adidas and even Jeff Bezos. I mean people hearing that, I'm sure going, how do you even land clients like that? I'm here trying to do my thing and maybe I don't have the connections. And what would you say to people in that situation where they're like, maybe they have aspirations to raise the bar on their clientele and the type of work that they do, but they're going, I don't really know where to go for that on my own. What suggestion would you be other than to go work for somebody else who has that as a client for some period of time?

Speaker 1 (27:36):

Yeah, I mean, one way to get your foot in the door, and this is what I did with Guinness, was I called the temp agency, the creative temp agency that they work with, and they were able to get me work with Guinness in that way. So all the big companies, they need all kinds of creative help, and so much so that they often partner with a creative temp agency to manage all that. And if you can get in with that agency, then you can eventually get in with that larger kind of brand new company. So that's one way that I think isn't always well known. The Jeff Bezos thing was kind of random. I mean, that was, a college friend of mine had a husband who worked with Jeff Bezos, and they were doing the branding for his nonprofit, which was this beautiful vision for free Montessori education for underprivileged, low-income families. And so that was through relationships, and I think that's probably the most common answer is just relationships. And even the ones that you don't expect, that tends to always be a go-to, for how to build work.

Speaker 3 (29:04):

Of course, you have to do great work. You have to show that you have the skill and the talent and the drive, because too many people, I think they want something handed to them and think, well, people will just come to me and I'll just do my thing. And there's a level of just professionalism and excellence that you need to present to say, yeah, if you're going to trust me by hiring me to do a job for you to partner with you in this way, I want you to know that you can, in fact, trust me to do that,

Speaker 1 (29:37):

Right? Number one, I mean, if you can finish the job and everyone's happy, and most importantly, you can remember to invoice after you've delivered the job, which can be hard for us creatives, it's like, ah, the billing part, gross. I hate that part. But yeah, I think keeping it simple with that and delivering, I think that's half the battle, just delivering the end result and making sure everyone's happy.

Speaker 3 (30:12):

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious because this is, you're in this day to day and you've been in this for so long, I'm sure that things kind of morph and change over time and you like everyone, you want to branch out and do some next things and new things. How has that evolution looked for you and what have been the things that you've found either have been the wrong thing to pursue and you've just been like, yeah, I'm not really sure that this was the right place to go, or you were like, this was definitely the great thing for me to do because now I've unlocked something that becomes part of my income stream now as well. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Speaker 1 (30:57):

Yeah, definitely. Well, in 2000, maybe 11 ish, I started getting more and more into web design. So I had done branding, logo design and branding for a long time and just fundamental general graphic design. And then I started to get more and more into website work, and that kind of expanded my offerings. And thankfully I did do that because I mean, it's the majority of what I do now in a way. And what happened was though, I get these clients, they're ready to do a website with me, and then I would say, okay, your website copy is due on let's say June 1st, and then we're going to start the website design phase June 3rd. And then they'd call and they'd say, ah, I can't get my copy done. The deadline moves, can't get my copy done, deadline moves, can't get my copy done. Deadline moves. It's so painful. And I watched that happen so many times and I struggled with it myself. I had a website, but it was more about, it was a beautiful website. There was no strategic messaging on, there was a lot of visuals. It was back in that day, it was like a flash website, as you remember,

Speaker 3 (32:35):

Flash. I do.

Speaker 1 (32:37):

So anyway, it moves and all that. So basically I was like, okay, I'm going to figure out this problem. I hired a handful of writers and I still wasn't getting the simplicity that I like to go for. I'm a very minimalist when it comes to design and copy, and I really wanted to make sure that the copy was strategic, and I don't know what I I was looking for, so I couldn't decipher if it was strategic or not. And so in 2017, I ended up going to a StoryBrand workshop. This is way back before building a StoryBrand. The book was ever written, and Donald Miller took his whole team up to Portland and they did a two day workshop up here. And so I learned the framework and I thought, okay, this is really going to help my clients because now I can give them guidance and I can even do the copy for them if they need help with that.

(33:52):

But what was really, really cool was that after day one, I came home, I took everything that I learned and I applied it to my website. Day two, I raised my hand and had Donald Miller review my website, the new one that I had just done the night before and or revised the night before. And we went through it was really applying all those components of story, and then the workshop ended and I had literally a line of people lined up wanting to get my information and work with me, with me. And I don't say that because, well, I'm so great or in demand. I say that because that's the power of effective storytelling. When you're clear and you clearly show the result that you provide for people, they want to work with you. And so I had many aha moments about it as I started to implement more and more copy. But what happened was ultimately is I continued to expand my offering. So instead of just doing branding and then branding and website, now I'm doing branding, website and copy strategy. And I just for many years, just blown away by the power of storytelling on a website, what it can do to grow your business. And now I don't even do the first two. I just focus on the copywriting because I found that's the best way I can move the needle for my clients and help them grow in the shortest amount of time.

Speaker 3 (35:37):

Yeah, that's an amazing evolution of things, and I love that you were stopping and assessing through the whole journey and going like, okay, where do I tweak? I mean, honestly, just even alone, going home after that first day and thinking, okay, I need to strip things away from my website and kind of redo it, that is such a daunting idea for people when you're so close to your own thing. And I always say to encourage people, websites are living things. It is not a set it, forget it. And those that are set it and forget it, you can tell because there are still some websites out there that are built with flash and all the things that we were talking about from a long time ago. It needs to be updated because, and then I think also the other thing too is that either you as a person or the services you provide or your business, you're not static. You are evolving. I mean, sure, you're still within the same industry and doing the same kind of thing, but you wanted to reflect who you are and what you do today. And so to be able to communicate that clearly and to get that validation of a line of people out the door after your workforce were reviewed, I mean, I think that must've been a tremendous moment for you to say, yeah, this is key here. I'm glad I did this right.

Speaker 1 (37:06):

So true. Yeah, that's so true. I really agree with you too about the website is really, it's almost like a child. It grows and develops as you grow and develop and you continue to refine it. You don't want to be tweaking your website all the time. You can go to that extreme too. It's like get it to a good point and then revisit it in a few months or six months. And even though I do this as my job, my business is growing and evolving as am I, and the website needs to come along for the ride.

Speaker 3 (37:48):

Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally. The thing that I think so many times people think of these things like websites and social media and all the places of, here's where I tell people what I do, where they can find me. They're so busy on the actual thing that they're trying to build as far as their business or their idea or how they're applying their creativity, that stuff kind of is the competition in people's minds. It's like, oh, that's taking me away from the work that I really need to be doing, or it's distracting or I hate it because it's whatever. But I think when people can start to understand the broader context of why it's important and what its role and function is, and it's not there to take you away from the real thing that you should be doing and spending your time with, but rather communication and it's opening up conversations and relationships and opportunities when people start to come around it in that light, I think then the things that you do in that regard and the things that I do even in design as well, then those become valuable tools for people and they understand the context.

(38:56):

Have you found that you've had to educate a lot of people through that process? And has there been resistance or have most people just trusted you to do what you do best?

Speaker 1 (39:10):

There's a lot of education involved. I think people are hungry to know what the heck to do or what the heck to say. And when I create the copy for them, half of my job is educating them on the why behind what I'm doing. And they love it because they understand the strategy and they finally know how to do it for themselves. So it's great they get their copy done for them, but it's a collaborative approach so I can teach them how it's done, and then the next time they need to write something, they know the skill. So it's really fun. It's fun to see those light bulbs go off in people's brains and for them to feel empowered around how to write for their own business because I mean, most of us don't enjoy doing that. And when you can take the edge off it and make it feel easier and also kind of fun because when you know what to say, it can be fun, then everything changes for your business also, when you have clarity around what you do.

(40:36):

The other thing I just want to mention here is just when you do have clarity around what you do, you do that work to craft a very clear, concise story. You don't ever have to really do that again. You can keep using that same narrative over and over and over again. And that's actually a good thing. It's number one, it's less work for you. But number two, that repetition is what ends up building trust and helping you be remembered by other people. So it's a win-win, and then in a year you can revisit it and make sure it's still really aligned with you. It's also a living, breathing thing, but it does keep you from spinning your wheels with things and getting stuck in the weeds.

Speaker 3 (41:22):

Yeah, and that's an important point that you bring up too, as far as the clarity piece of it being, it's not simply just content in terms of deliverable. It's content that's actually aligned with purpose, and with that comes the alignment and clarity. So I think when that deeper work is done, that is for lack of a better word, script that you use often to refer to this is who I am, this is what I do, this is why I do it, how I do it. And so it's much more than just, Hey, I need some sales copy. Hey, I need an about me page. Hey, I need whatever the deliverable is. And I think that's where too there's there's room for education for people. Because so often the thing that's driving it is the deliverable. This is my need. This is what somebody told me I'm supposed to have on a website.

(42:17):

I would run into that problem and sometimes still do, where someone will say, Hey, I need a logo. Hey, I need to print some postcards or whatever the end result is. And yet I go, okay, well let's put a pin in that for a minute. Let's talk a broader conversation and find out Y why do you think you need this and what is the point of this? Because sometimes through talking about that, the conversation goes someplace else and you're like, no, actually what you need is X instead of Y. And they're like, oh my gosh, I didn't even think about that. I didn't even see that. And so we have that opportunity to step into that gap and help somebody through that, which I think is a tremendous responsibility and privilege.

Speaker 1 (43:02):

Completely, completely. I mean, most people that are self-employed or employed, we're all kind of trying to figure it out as we go. And so when you've watched a lot of people and helped a lot of people over the years, it's such an honor and a gift for them too, to get steered in the right direction. We can waste so much time and so much money on things that what is the real end result you're looking for? And maybe there's a quicker, better, easier way to get there. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (43:42):

For sure. I'd love to ask you a question in regards to now even your own personal creativity, because as someone who uses your creativity for your job, your career, and is using it all day long for someone else, have you struggled or maybe do you struggle with this place where creativity is still your own, where you're making something simply because either it brings you joy or because it's a place to play that If that has a place in your life, what does that look like right now for you?

Speaker 1 (44:21):

Well, I love that question. And honestly, I want more creative play for myself in my life. I'm a single mom with a five-year-old kiddo. So there's lots of opportunity with him to be creative. And also yesterday he was painting a wooden heart and then, yeah, anyways, painting this wooden heart. And I was like, I don't want to do that. I really want to do that. But I was needing to make lunch and do a couple other things. And so I left it out because I was like, oh, and he's in the bath later. I'm going to paint that heart. So I think when you're parenting, you've got to take advantage of those little tiny windows, even if it's 10 minutes to play and be creative and create something. And I also think one of the reasons why I find my work fulfilling is because I am self-employed, and so I'm always doing creative work for my own business. So that feels in a way really fulfilling to me, and I get to play around and create whatever I want. There's nobody to give me the thumbs up or thumbs down. I'm running some Facebook ads right now, and one of 'em I think is hilarious. It's just me goofing off taking a selfie at the end of a workday. I mean, it was just a funny photo, but I'm like, we'll, just see what happens. And of course, it's doing the best compared to all the other really polished

Speaker 3 (46:05):

That

Speaker 1 (46:05):

I design. Totally. So yeah, I think that's a big reason why I love the freedom of being self-employed is because I have to create things for my own self.

Speaker 3 (46:22):

And I think sometimes we forget that beyond projects and beyond pursuing interests, the thing that we're actually creating is a life, right? I mean, we're creating something that hopefully is reflecting the things that are important to us, the people that are important to us, where we want to spend the majority of our time, energy, and effort so that we can have some kind of impact and know that we've done something right with our time ourselves. We've contributed in some way larger than ourselves, and we get the opportunity when you're self-employed, and even if you're not, the time that you have, if that's important to you, I think you figure out how to do that because it's top of mind. This is really what I'm doing. I'm not existing. I'm not waiting until I retire to do X, Y, and Z. I'm not simply just in the hamster wheel my whole life. I'm being proactive and I'm creating with my time, my presence, my right. I mean, that's a huge thing.

Speaker 1 (47:32):

That is so beautiful. You need to create an audiogram of that last paragraph. So beautiful. Yes. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, we are creating a life. It is one aspect is it's multiple creative aspects of life. It's creative work, but how can you, in the bigger picture, create your life intentionally in a way that brings you meaning and joy and impact? And when we're creative, well, I'll just tell you a quick story because it's the opposite of being creative. I got a job one time, it was a temp job as a file clerk. I was filing a stack probably, I don't know, three feet high of triplicate, that triplicate paper. Yes, it's really thin. So it was a stack this high of triplicate paper, and I would take one piece, and then I'd go into this room that was all files, and I would find that patient, and it was the medical clinic. And then I'd stuff the paper into that folder, and my fingers started to get raw because the file folders were jammed in there so tight that you could barely pull him out and push him back in again. And so anyway, all that to say, it took me a day and a half or longer to get through that pile, and then they came out and brought another pile out, and I was like, are you kidding me?

(49:25):

I literally thought I was going to die, and this is pre podcast, pre headphones, pre anything. It was just like me in this damn pile of triplicates. And I literally, it was torture for me. It was torture for me. And so that was obviously, it didn't last more than a few days there, and I had to bail. But I think that that was such an important thing that happened in my life because it showed me that I have no tolerance for fundamental boredom. And I had, in order to avoid that, I had to start being intentional about the work that I do and how I spend my days, because that was not an option for me. So I don't even remember why I started telling that story. But all that to say, yes, it's important to, as creatives, I think we're even more sensitive to living a life of intention and meaning and fulfillment, and it's our job to really feed and foster that creative side of ourselves in order to be healthy.

Speaker 3 (50:51):

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's so much more than just the actual work that we're doing. It's how we're showing up doing that work and who we are, and that's a journey and process in and of itself. But to know each day we have the opportunity and possibility that's before us, and to surround ourselves with people who encourage that and to have people, that's a community where you can talk about these things regularly so that we don't lose sight of it, I think is important too. Right.

Speaker 1 (51:23):

So important.

Speaker 3 (51:24):

Yeah. So let me ask you one last question because unbelievably, we're at the top of our time already. I feel like when I get together with other creative people, and especially when there's that visual design aspect and things too, I could talk for days, but what is it maybe that you see as something you'd love to do? Maybe that's part of your business, or maybe that's even a personal creative expression, but something that you're like, this is something I would love to incorporate into my world, into my work, into my creativity.

Speaker 1 (52:01):

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is I think as a nod back to where this all began, I would love to take my son and move to another city and live life for a year, another country and live life for a year out of our comfort zone. Because for me, doing that opened up so many possibilities that I wouldn't have been open to here in my routine in our day-to-day to day in our day-to-Day routine. And so I think getting out of the comfort zone in and of itself is an act of creativity because we have to innovate. We look at things with fresh eyes. We experience meaning in a deeper way. We are able to really prioritize what's important to us, and it allows us, I think, to be even more intentional about what we do in our day and who're around who's important to us, who do we reach out to?

(53:19):

And so that act has been so in my life. I wonder where I would be right now if I hadn't taken that year off to travel. And I want my kiddo to kind of, like you said, see the possibilities around the way other cultures live outside of the us. And not that we're doing things wrong here, but just like, let's look at the whole buffet. Let's look at the whole buffet and choose rather than just look at the one item. So I think that's the thing that I keep coming back to. I do have some fear around it, for sure. It's a totally different deal when you have a kid with you versus when you're doing it on your own, but I believe it's going to happen and I'm kind of inching my way in that direction.

Speaker 3 (54:24):

Nice. Nice. Well said. As far as even just the benefits of being able to move into that kind of space and that perspective. I think so. Yeah. I can't wait to hear what happens next.

Speaker 1 (54:38):

I want to know how you would answer that question.

Speaker 3 (54:44):

As far as introducing a creative thing, that is what comes next. The things that I'm looking at right now are really helping other people create whether they feel like they're creative or not. I believe everyone's creative, and so I want more of those conversations to happen where light bulbs start going off and people go, you know what? I want to actually act on these ideas that I have, the creativity that I have inside of me, because it's going to help them as a person. And then it's also going to create something that's going to help other people. And so whether that's in the context of their own personal creative journey or in the context of a corporation, I want to see more people showing up for their creativity, which is why I'm having these conversations. So all that to say, for me, it's creating more opportunities via speaking more, speaking on more stages and more podcasts, and any opportunity I get to connect with people through that to share my experiences and insights and the information that I have and some processes that I have creatively to again, just help other people because I want more of that ripple effect.

(56:08):

I know that the things that I've been through, the things that are in my life aren't just for me, they're for other people. And so I want just more of that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:19):

Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, you're doing it. That's great.

Speaker 3 (56:25):

Awesome. Well, as we wrap things up today, where can people go to find you? How can they follow you? If they would like to hire you to help them kind of bring some alignment and clarity around their messaging and their website, lay some links on us.

Speaker 1 (56:42):

If you want to learn how to write compelling copy in five minutes flat, you can go to Red Door Designs. That's R-E-D-D-O-O-R-D-E-S-I-G-N s.com. And pretty much everything that I do is right there on that page. I have a great freebie for you guys. And I also help people write their website copy in two and a half hours. And you can follow me on Instagram at Red Door Design with no S at the end.

Speaker 3 (57:17):

Okay. Got it. And we'll be sure to put that in the show notes so people can just simply click and follow along, and I can't wait to see what comes next for you. Kris, I want to thank you so much for our time today. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 1 (57:31):

Thank you, Mike. I've had so much fun talking with you.

Speaker 4 (57:39):

Thanks for listening today. I'd appreciate if you would subscribe, leave a rating and a review. It really helps this podcast be seen and heard by others.